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Both the Georgia Creeks and Cherokees were living on detached farms in the 1820s

Both the Georgia Creeks and Cherokees were living on detached farms in the 1820s

A Footnote on the McIntosh-Texas Series of Articles

The major objective of this series of articles in the People of One Fire is to get people to understand the real cultural history of the Creeks and Cherokees.  The majority of history articles by white authors state that removal of the Creeks and Cherokees from western Georgia was necessary in order to give them time to change their lifestyles in order to be compatible with white neighbors. 

This is just not true.  What Roger Kennedy discovered was that whatever excuse the white politicians made, the real reason for the Creeks and Cherokees being deported was the greed of men, who wanted to acquire large tracts of prime bottom land cheaply in order to establish cotton plantations.   For obvious reasons, both the Creeks and the Cherokees had established their farmsteads on the most fertile land.  The cotton planters could not assemble large tracts if the bottom lands were divided up into modest sized farms.

Over and over again we have found eyewitness accounts that by the 1820s,  both the Creeks and the Cherokees were living lifestyles quite similar to their white neighbors on detached farms and plantations.   This is also true for East Central and Northeast Alabama.    Where Chief Bowl ran into trouble was that he was insisting on maintaining a traditional tribal village on a large reserve.

The Creeks, who moved to Texas dispersed across the landscape and developed plantations and farms little different than their white neighbors.  Most of these Creeks were mixed bloods anyway.   Therefore, they were hardly noticed by the Texas politicians.

Look at this painting of Benjamin Hawkins.  It was painted just before the War of 1812.  Note that immediately in back of him is a Creek farmstead . . . hardly different from white farmsteads of the era.   In the left center of the background is a cone shaped Creek chokopa and square.  On the other side of the river is the emerging city of Macon, GA.   The message of the painting is that the work of Hawkins made it possible for the Creeks to maintain traditions such as the chokopa and yet be in close proximity to conventional towns.




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Richard Thornton is a professional architect, city planner, author and museum exhibit designer-builder. He is today considered one of the nation’s leading experts on the Southeastern Indians. However, that was not always the case. While at Georgia Tech Richard was the first winner of the Barrett Fellowship, which enabled him to study Mesoamerican architecture and culture in Mexico under the auspices of the Institutio Nacional de Antropoligia e Historia. Dr. Roman Piňa-Chan, the famous archaeologist and director of the Museo Nacional de Antropologia, was his fellowship coordinator. For decades afterward, he lectured at universities and professional societies around the Southeast on Mesoamerican architecture, while knowing very little about his own Creek heritage. Then he was hired to carry out projects for the Muscogee-Creek Nation in Oklahoma. The rest is history. Richard is the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the KVWETV (Coweta) Creek Tribe and a member of the Perdido Bay Creek Tribe. In 2009 he was the architect for Oklahoma’s Trail of Tears Memorial at Council Oak Park in Tulsa. He is the president of the Apalache Foundation, which is sponsoring research into the advanced indigenous societies of the Lower Southeast.



    While some “rich” Cherokees had large plantations, many of the Cherokees occupied one-room log cabins and cultivated small plots of land. The “poor” Cherokees were dispersed across a wide area of the Cherokee nation.
    The Revolutionary War put paid to the Town system of settlement in North Georgia.

    • William, that is a very true statement, both for the Cherokees and the Creeks. I wrote this footnote because it was obvious from some comments from readers that they imagined when the Creeks and Cherokees went west that they were still living in compact villages, which contrasted starkly with white settlement patterns.


    “Where Chief Bowl ran into trouble was that he was insisting on maintaining a traditional tribal village on a large reserve.” Is not a correct statement. He insisted on maintaining Cherokee cultural identity and sought to establish an Inter-tribal homeland. Not on a reserve, as the A-C tribes had, but a semi-autonomous nation. 1.66 million acres is not a reserve!

    However, do to circumstances, they may have lived somewhat more primitive than their northern cousins in IT, they were not living as they did in pre-removal periods. The issue was all 1.66 million acres, that were developed, being the envy of whites. We had such an excess of crops that we were selling them at Nacogdoches! Do you really know what east Texas was like prior to the Cherokees arrival? It was a thicket that could not be crossed. The Caddo didn’t even live there! They were to the north and south but not on the lands Duwa’li was on. Once those lands had been cleared to a good extent, crops put in the invading whites desired those lands. They were not living as primitives in anyway.

    Your hypothesis on this robust Creek presence is not supported historically in any way either. The Treaty of 1836, was not a white treaty but one that DUWA’LI pushed. for some time The Creeks mentioned were in fact those that I have mentioned previously. Yes Georgian whites were prevalent, but not individual Creeks, separate from the Alabama, Coushatta or Pakana.

    You can even look at the proto Mount Tabor Community with it’s log cabins (Thompson collection SFAU). Yes after annexation they (Cherokees) took on southern building patterns, but the Creeks did not prior to annexation and the Alabama-Coushatta did not until much . (That didn’t apply to some of the Drew and McIntosh families in Orange County on the Falonah Plantation) I am sorry but as a genealogist, historian, tribal activist, there was no legitimate sizable Creek presence other than the bands mentioned. After the Civil War, there were Creeks throughout Texas. Many of these in Angelina County, Limestone County and a far west as Marble Falls, were all Berryhill descendants who initially came to Mount Tabor in that as McIntosh Party Creeks there life had been threatened in IT. (Thelma Nolen Cornfeld published considerable information on this family)

    This is not speculation but documented data, as we have done years of research on the tribes.

    • How could you possibly know who was Creek? They intentionally went to Texas to get away from both the Red Sticks and the racists. However, both in the Southeast and in Louisiana-Texas these families tried to marry other mixed bloods so they could practice Creek traditions in secret. They intentionally adopted English names to conceal their identity.

      For example, my grandmother had a Creek first name, Mahala, which means “teacher.” However, she adopted the public name of Ruby. Very few people knew her real first name until after she died.

      One must start in the Southeast . . . which we did . . . to do a truly scientific study on the matter. Over 22,000 Creeks disappeared from the census in Georgia between 1820 and 1830, whose names do not appear on the rolls of the Alabama Creeks. They either listed themselves as white in the 1830 census or else moved to Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas. 3000 more Creeks were living in the Cherokee Nation. Only about 800 were captured and sent to Oklahoma.

      The Berryhills are actually Uchees from Barnwell County, SC. Many still live there. One Berryhill went to the Creek Nation and started a very prominent family there. Most changed their name to Berry and moved to Texas. It is in their family genealogies.

      As “True Women” very accurately pointed out, the Georgia Creeks didn’t advertise their origins and ethnicity. Georgia Hawkins Wood became a very wealthy women in Texas. Her mixed blood Creek sons were very prominent in the Texas War for Independence and early Texas history, but she would not talk about her famous Creek family with strangers.

      Well, here is one more example. William Thornton was a white man who was hired by the federal government to teach Creeks in Coweta how to make wagon wheels. He married a Creek woman. After the 1827 treaty, his oldest son won a lot near Palmetto, GA. Thornton Road is now a major thoroughfare in the part of Metro Atlanta. William’s other 5 sons and daughters went to East Texas. One of William’s grandsons, Seth, was Captain of a troop of US Army Dragoons along the Rio Grande River, when it was attacked by Mexicans . . . triggering the Mexican-American War. Guess he didn’t have much impact on Texas history did he?


        Actually it is not that hard to trace Creeks in Texas who didn’t go white. Those that did may have had a Creek ancestor but chose no longer to be Creek. This can be easily documented. I have my opinions on them but will not go there. The Tejanos you mention, were not Creek. You are welcome to talk to the leadership of the Lipan or the Comecrudo, Alabama-Coushatta, etc. Their data supports mine, not to mention contemporary accounts that are widely published by Spanish and later Mexican authorities. Or even Texas colonists papers.

        Next, you do not know about the Berryhill’s. While John Berryhill was Catawba according to Pink Hawkins, his wife Elizabeth Derrisaw was not. They were from Horse Path Town, Creek Nation, Ala. They were pro-removal and their lives were threatened in the MCN. This is why William Berryhill led them to Texas. DOCUMENTED. He is buried at Mt. Tabor as are several other Creeks. The Berryhill’s did not change their last names, as they can be traced from the 1850 census to present day. Add that to the 1832 Creek census, where the same family appears. I have never seen (could be, but I have never seen) a genealogy of that family that changed it’s name to Berry. Sounds more like a fictional wannabe account, rather than fact. Now I am talking about John Berryhill and Elizabeth Derrisaw. Before that, I cannot say. If you have PROOF that the BIA would accept, I would love to see Berryhill ties to the Uchee.

        The Thornton’s, some of which married the Thompson’s, in Trinity County and Angelina County, went white in Texas. Their descendants today can not even prove Creek blood beyond a shadow of doubt, more just family lore than anything else. Bottom line, you are still referring to a few isolated families (Hawkins), not a mass migration. I can show you a few Cherokee families as well as Choctaws that mixed in with the population over the years. Yet these people came to Texas as a band, not individuals before the revolution. Still no mass migration! After the bloodshed in 1840, some did in fact separate from their bands, while others joined in with other group for protection. (Example Yowani’s going to the Brazos Reservation, or later some Yowani Choctaws, Chickasaws and Muscogees moving to Mount Tabor between 1845-1850.) Mascogos (today around Bracketville) heading to northern Mexico, Wild Cat’s Seminoles temporarily in Mexico, Kickapoo’s near Piedras Negras, etc, etc. They were not part of a mass migration beyond Duwa’li’s people.

        You have some great data at times, but then others it appears you go on a tangent that is merely hypothesis that cannot be supported by documentation. It casts light on the accuracy of a lot of your data that I had accepted. But since Texas is my area of knowledge, I will call it into question because some of it is just not correct.

        I respect your efforts, but please do not speculate as you did in the last two articles. I myself am a descendant of Alex Davis (Pakana), as well as being Choctaw, Chickasaw and Cherokee, all well documented by those that did not turn their back on their heritage. So when you speak of Texas, you speak of my people. If you knew more about Mt. Tabor, you would know of our connections to the Drew and McIntosh families, plus the Berryhill, Posey, Self and Barber lines. So nothing you state about the Hawkins is news to us. It is still just one extended family.

        Have a great day Richard

        • Ric Edwards, one of the founding members of the People of One Fire, lived in Texas until a few months ago. He is going to contact you and tell you more about the Creeks in Texas. He said that they came in waves and each wave tended concentrate around certain communities – but most tried to keep their ethnic identity a secret. He gave me a long list of those towns and cities. However, since he knows both the family names and community names, he will enable you fill the gaps in your research. You seem to be looking into the fish bowl from the outside and are lumping us with the cultural behavior of other tribes. My family celebrated the Green Corn festival until my grandmother’s generation died off, yet until the very late 20th century tried to keep it a secret that we were Creek. When I was a kid, my mother turned down a reparations check from the BIA because she didn’t want anyone in our neighborhood to find out that she was Indian. The period between 1825 and around 1980 was more like Jews living secretly in a Latin American country. My mother was the first person in her family that the State of Georgia allowed to attend public high school. She went to the University of Georgia on a full scholarship and graduated Summa Cum Laude. It was a weird situation in which people with ancient culture were treated like hunter-gatherers.


            First having been a genealogist for more than 30 years I know many, many Texas families. I have been tracing Indian identity for years and 90% is just wannabe or family lore. That is my experience, not looking through a fish bowl.

            Those that left their people…They chose not to be Indians, well, I’ll leave that alone. That one family did Green Corn, I am not going to question you as I wasn’t there (also wasn’t in Texas), but I know where the Creek populations, or claimed populations are. (Notice, I don’t challenge your Georgia claims, although some cause me to pause. The reason is I am not as knowledgeable on pre-removal Creek families there, but I am in Texas)To us ones you would refer to are the Walk Away People. To come out now as Indians, after groups like ours dealt with the Klan and to this day fight bigotry, (not to mention being screwed over by the Cherokee Nation and our former Chairman, W.W. Keeler in 1974) then they, not being able to prove a lick (although there is a lot of Creek data available to link to), but of course they feel it in their hearts! Yeah, uh huh. No, finding Indians under every rock does nothing to help Indians. If their ancestors chose to give up MCN citizenship, did not stay with an organized group that fought to stay alive (A-C tribes, Koasati in La. etc, etc), then they are whites (or blacks) and should honor their ancestors wishes. This stuff of Creeks everywhere, a similar story to the Cherokee Princess line, that I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard it, is just not factual. Was there some, of course, but not anywhere close to the numbers your alluding to. Many of these we have actually documented and those along with remnant Yowani families, we will help to document them further, after our project is complete.

            Families like Billy Bottoms in Cherokee County, is a great example of a Yowani family. Or the Doyle and Thornton families in Angelina County, examples of Muscogee families. of whom I know their lines and while I do believe they are Creek, they were not there pre-revolution. But again, they are small family groups, not a mass migration. Redbone families like the Goins, Ashworth, etc. we are also well aware of. How and when they got to Texas. All post revolution! Yet the Berryhill’s, Posey and Self’s we can trace not only when they came to Texas, but where they were in the Creek Nation, pre-removal. Everybody who thinks they are part Indian or who looks like an Indian mix-blood (Iron Eyes Cody) are not necessarily Indian by blood. If they left their people like the many families who chose US citizenship to Cherokee citizenship, they became part of the dominant society, as was painfully brought to bare on the Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokees just recently.

            We are Native because of our unique relationship to our communities/bands/nations and each other. Leaving that behind, means your ancestors chose not to be an Indian, but a white person (or black) that may be, wait for it…. “part Indian”.

            Nanih Alepa Sia


            JC Thompson, I would like to hear your opinion on those chose not to be Indians and passed for white.

          • There is a lot of us in that category. My family was listed as Creek Indian until the 1840 census then the same people listed themselves as white, even though they continued to maintain Creek traditions. I remember seeing photos of my late 19th century ancestors in my grandmother’s drawer at family reunion. The men were wearing turbans and long shirts. The women were wearing Creek-type dresses. My greatgrandfather was a mikko (minor chief) and my grandmother had a Creek first name. My mother was the first person that the State of Georgia allowed to graduate from a public school. There was a law on the books in Georgia until when Jimmy Carter was governor, which forbade Indians from attending public schools, practicing a licensed profession, owning real estate and testifying on their own behalf in court. Evidently, even though my mother’s family would put white on the census, local people knew that they were Creek Indians.


    enjoy all your info you send out, would like to see a book of all your send out, this just came out on Youtube.

    • I update The Forgotten History of North Georgia each winter with the new discoveries, discussed in POOF the previous year. It is heavily illustrated, but printed in black and white to keep the printing costs down. It retails for $20.



    Very interesting discussion.
    It’s complicated ever since the colonization of the Americas.
    Many natives perished by disease, conflicts etc.
    Natives were/are displaced, sought refuge and have been
    adopted into different tribes, mixed and even changed their names.

    A discussion is good; it can lead to hot debates and (almost) nothing can be taken at face value but let us stay calm and
    work together to get the truth out to the public.

    PS: Very interesting video Kent Sargent.


    irony of ironies! So the “communalistic” land holdings of our ancestors were not broken up to benefit the “hardy individualist Anglo-Saxons”, the family farmsteads of Creeks were instead seized to create giant Capitalist Cotton plantations! So which people were really the hardy freedom-loving people?

    • You got that right. The Creeks and Cherokees had cleared the land. That meant that the slaves could immediately start planting cotton, while the Massa and his Missus were attending the social season in Savannah.


    This message is intended for J.C. Thompson:

    “Chose not to be Indians?” is a ridiculous phrase. Nobody can choose to be “white” or “black”. That is a skin color. Did many Indians choose to become American citizens? Yes. Some of them did so for a wide variety of reasons. Some did because they were benefiting from it as land owners. Others did so because the Native Governments taking shape were being taken over by “Mixed Blood” slave owners who were selling out their own people for profit while pretending to be “defenders of the nation”.

    Take, for example, a group today known as the “Carmel Indians” or “Magoffin Melungeons”. A genetic study of certain families from this group based in Floyd and Magoffin Counties of Southeast Kentucky will show (without question) higher Native DNA than the vast majority of Tahlequah, Oklahoma Cherokee. They were refused the right to attend schools, lived in isolated coves in complete and utter squalor and never once denied their identity as Indian. Their reason for rejecting the Cherokee Nation East and removal to Oklahoma was they refused to leave the land. The “Nations” we’re inventions of the American Government. There was no “Cherokee Nation” prior to the late 1700’s. The Americans were attempting to create one though. In order to do that the Cherokee Nation would have to be consistent with the U.S. concept of Democratically Elected Governments. Prior town governed Clan ruled systems were overthrown along with the Moytoy patrilineal line.

    Today Cherokee in Oklahoma will swear to God the Cherokee never had a nobility which is a complete revision of history. Moytoy of Tellico wasn’t just called “Emperor of the Cherokee” for chuckles. Kangatoga (Old Hop or Stalking Turkey) took the title over after his death. When Stalking Turkey died his son Standing Turkey did.

    In 1730 when 7 “Moytoy” Chiefs visited London and met with King George II they did so as Cherokee nobility. One specifically held the hereditary title of Prince. In 1763 when Ostenaco Moytoy along with two other Moytoy Chiefs visited King George III with Henry Timberlake to secure Cherokee lands following the signing of the Treaty of Paris they did so as Nobility meeting with Nobility. The Chickamauga War led by Tsiyu Gansini (Dragging Canoe) was caused by a split at that very moment in 1775 when Overhill Cherokee led by Ada’gal’kalu and Aganatsistau along with Kalanu were allying with the rogue Virginians and attempting to make themselves heads of the Cherokee Nation (a creation of the Watauga businessmen).

    Dragging Canoe, working with leaders such as Hokolesqua (Cornstalk) and Alexander McGillivray and numerous others was attempting to establish a Pan-Indian “Kingdom” to deal directly with the Nobilities of France, Spain and England while the Americans were overthrowing the Nobility to create the Capitalistic pseudo-Democracy of Freemasons such as the “Sons of Liberty” who were allied with the Ohio Land Company (created by George Washington’s father) and the Transylvania Land Company (created by Christopher Gist – grandfather of George Gist, code-name Sequoyah).

    Paper Indiana amuse me. Federal Rolls do not qualify you as Indian, they qualify you as being recognized by the United States as Indians. I don’t know you but that drivel is played out. There are Cherokee today who have blonde hair and blue eyes talking about they are real Indians because their ancestors 100 years ago were 1/16th and they have the audacity to talk down on “Magoffin Melungeons” as “mulattos” when the people never left the lands and never denied their identities as Indians. All surrounding whites knew them as Indians and the racism they faced was because they were Indians. Unlike the Cherokee of Oklahoma they didn’t make slaves of their black friends, they lived side by side with them and went through shit with them.

    The nerve. I actually had a Tahlequah Cherokee tell me Robert K. Thomas (a Cherokee Nationalist) wasn’t Cherokee because he couldn’t find him on Federal Rolls. The same Robert K. Thomas who dedicated his entire life to Native people, taught at the University of Arizona and worked side by side with Vine Deloria.

    Some of y’all are lost.


      Jonathan Rex: You do not know Texas history, not but a small tidbit from one book. Then you try to tie in other items that have nothing to do with the nonexistent of a mass migration of Creeks into Texas. As to Robert Thomas (he has been dead a while, but I can check what the CNO has if you like) and those like him, I do not know his genealogy, but I can say (having been a genealogist for over 30 years) that proving Cherokee blood is much easier than just about any tribe in the USA. You want to base an entire hypothesis on some family lore, then be expected not to be taken serious. Having been dealing with Texas history and Native peoples there my entire life, I do find it insulting when one book tops the wealth of information available. Although one must have to look!

      As to going white, the statements made here in response to mine, are clearly wannabe in origin, not that of Native people who held on to their ways and their people. Basically your letter to me Jonathan sounds more like a Donald Trump speech, lots of talk but little meaning, than anything else. Please tell me where I spoke of Cherokee aristocracy? Of Dragging Canoe, etc? Note, this doesn’t mean that there are not Creeks who refused to remove, or Cherokees (Henderson Roll), just did they maintain their identity, remain with other NdN’s, state they were such on census, birth and death records, etc??? If not, they went white, or were never Indian to begin with.

      Paper Indians, is a phrase that wannabe’s use when they cannot prove squat of Native blood but rather steal our identity to make themselves something they are not. If your family was of Native blood and chose to go white, why do you not heed the desires of your ancestors, rather than try to steal our documented history as we fought against the Republic of Texas in a guerilla war from 1840 until the Treaty of Birds Fort. Or how about living through Jim Crow Texas where our people often could not attend public school while your white kin that claimed some mythical black dutch, had no problem. You have NO IDEA what we went through in Texas to stay on our lands. While books like Cherokee Cavaliers gives some insight, it does not touch on our Yowani Choctaw or McIntosh Party Creeks and their perils. While things changed after the oil boom, we still struggle to stay alive, having been a band of the Cherokee Nation until 1974. That is part of the NdN experience, not just hitting the pow-wow trail and using a dumb sounding name for you middle name, as we generally refer to our Indian names as a personal thing. In summary, you know nothing except wannabe nonsense. None of what you stated, except the first sentence or so had anything to do with me, except your personal rant. Plus my debate was with Richard Thornton on Creeks in Texas, not with you.

      This debate by someone whose grandma said she was “part Indian” is old, very old. I truly try to help people prove Cherokee, Creek, Chickasaw or Choctaw lineages. However in the last 30 years 90% of those are just family lore. Lies someone stated or misstated that that got people to think they were Cherokee and hate those “Paper Indians” because they can prove lineages. I am not talking about the Dawes, I mean prove at all. Then the HATE that spews from them when you tell them they are not Indian, at least not Cherokee. Rather than be proud of who they really are, they pop a cork. Even having one person threaten to kill me when I proved that although he was of African and also a Dupree, it was one generation before the Dupree’s married into the Cherokee Starr’s.

      I respect considerably what Richard is attempting to do, but disagree with his hypothesis in Texas. That is my area of specialty. I don’t try to tell him how things were in Georgia, as that is his specialty.



        Ha! I had to laugh at this. The first Anglo-Cherokee contact may have been in 1656. The Reservation Rolls were taken in 1817. That’s 161 years of NO DOCUMENTATION. The first documentation of tribal members by individual name was conducted by the United States government in 1817 with the Reservation Roll and the 1817-1835 Emigration Rolls. These rolls contained limited genealogical information and only listed head of households and numbers of family members. It is important to note that the Cherokees did not have a written language until 1821 and they did not begin keeping written records of deaths or marriages until well after that time. So your claim of “proving Cherokee blood is much easier than just about any tribe in the USA” is laughable. Not everyone has a rock solid pedigree, Cherokee or otherwise. Nowhere online can I find any evidence supporting the fantasy claim that proving Cherokee blood is much easier than just about any tribe in the USA.

        By 1817, the Cherokee Nation had signed away 2/3 of their land at best. Their territory was very limited to Northern Georgia, Northern Alabama, parts of Tennessee, and a very small part of Southern Kentucky. There were countless of others living outside those boundaries. Can you account for them? I would like for you to provide a list of EVERY single Cherokee from 1656 to 1830. You claim like other self-appointed “wannabe hunters” that the Cherokee are the most documented. Or are those just words?

        There were eighteen rolls which recorded the Cherokee and Cherokee Freedman from 1817-1949. The rolls were often taken as a result of land or money distribution due to new treaties or US policies relating to the Cherokee. These rolls, coupled with the Federal Census of Indian Territory in 1860 and 1900 and the Cherokee Nation Census of 1880, are the only official records of those people who lived in both eastern and western Cherokee territories. Finding one’s ancestors on these rolls means that their family is Cherokee, plain and simple. However, nothing in Cherokee genealogy is that simple. If someone does not find their ancestors on these records it does not mean that they are not Cherokee. In a nutshell, these records were not complete. Why? Many Cherokee moved away from the Nation for various reasons. Because they were not living within the boundaries of the Nation, they would not be recorded on the Cherokee rolls. Also, some Cherokee who were living within the Nation boundaries decided not to enroll on later rolls because they’d grown weary of the broken treaties and false promises that often accompanies them.

        So the only way to be a real Indian is if one carries a status card in their wallet? That is absurd.

        • There is something else Steve. Unlike Caucasian historians and anthropologists, plus most Cherokees . . . I can translate personal and village names that are not Cherokee words. What I found was that none of the Cherokee villages in the Georgia Mountains east of New Echota had Cherokee names. They were either Creek, Maya, Uchee or Arawak. I am pretty sure what happened was that when the main body of Cherokees were given Northwest Georgia, they moved down into the choice river bottomlands and let remnants of other tribes either stay in the mountains or move into the mountains. However, the federal troops considered all Indians to be Cherokees and labeled them thusly, when they were rounded up and marched to Oklahoma.



    How far back have you even researched the history? You think the people began in the 1800’s? Mackintosh and McGillvray are both Scottish names, rooted in Slave Owning Scottish settlers who married mixed French-Creek women. McGillivray’s family held stock in the Charlestown Scottish-Jewish trade company that was bringing slaves (along with weapons) in. That’s not going white but refusing to follow those who agreed to sell the land is? That was back in the 1700’s before folks began moving early into Arkansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Denying that there were isolated Native communities throughout the Appalachians is idiotic. It is very well documented but because of the early 1900’s and a Virginian named Pecker their status was changed to “free people of color” because he made it the law that one African Ancestor trumps all other Ancestors. Can’t rewrite history to fit Rez Politics, sorry.

    All of my ancestors are very well documented. Don’t worry about me. I’m not one of your wannabes. But let’s step back and take a real honest look at the Cherokee and Creek and this fun fantasy of fullbloods permeating politics today out West.

    Alexander McGillivray’s mother was from the Wind Clan because her mother was from the Wind Clan. Her father was French. Her mother was only 1/4. Which made McGillivray 1/16 at best by the Blood Quantum rule. Chief Bowles of the Southern Creeks wasn’t Creek at all. But let’s focus on McGillivray. He was Creek not by rolls or some imaginary degree of blood, he was Creek by Clan and Culture. He was Creek enough to command the loyalty of the Red Stick faction of Northern Creeks. He went rogue in his last couple years but at no time was he ever viewed as anything but Creek.

    Clans make the Creek and Cherokee and other tribes. Not the stuff that got introduced when all the leaders began “going white” (as you like to say).

    You repeatedly said you wasn’t going to go there and then you did and I’m calling you on it. From my experience with the Oklahoma crowd it’s always white-Indians who are the loudest about not “going white”. Saying that certain Melungeon families aren’t Native is as ridiculous as claiming the Saponi aren’t. The Melungeon began with Malungu (Africans) who mixed with Powhatans in Virginia. They were brought in 1619 by a man named Jope and intermarried with Opechanacanough’s family. This isn’t a family myth. It’s history. Documented. Their village was called Nsubwanyi (New Place). The “yi” suffix used by Cherokee for a place comes from Melungeons because all Cherokee moved south with some of them from Kentucky when the Iroquois attacked them. The Moytoy Cherokee line has ties to Powhatans through a man named Thomas Carpenter (which is where Attakullakulla actually got his nickname “Little Carpenter” from).

    I’m not interested in the Texas debate. Know nothing about Texas. I know Duwali was a follower of Dragging Canoe as a young man but the Western Cherokee History doesn’t interest me. I’m not criticizing the CNO or Creek Nation or any of y’all out West but most of y’all know fuckall about the Appalachians and those who remained behind and should probably stop acting like y’all do.


    I realize that there are numerous (understatement) wannabe fake tribes all over the country and something does need to be done about that. What that is precisely I’m not sure.

    What I do know is that when a tribe doesn’t own the actual land they pretend to govern and are worried about protecting their name and logo for their enrolled members (stockholders) the tribe isn’t really a tribe at all but is a corporation masquerading as a Native nation. Especially when the membership in that tribe has nothing to do with traditional Clan Culture and is based on Federal Rolls. Doesn’t matter what ceremonies you carry out, relearn by reading Moravian German Journals and fake for dumb tourists if the land isn’t yours and you can’t govern it in an autonomous fashion then claiming to be a Nation is a joke.

    I don’t know what’s worse: Non-Natives trying to take up a Native culture and mixing it with goofy New Age nonsense or real Natives who are so brainwashed that they think an occupying government’s puppet tribal system is authentic.

    The “Cherokee Princess” thing by white people is silly. But it didn’t come from nowhere. Most of them are full of it but their family fictions are rooted in some facts. White men who married Indian women chose women from prominent families and in some cases they assumed that because their wives were daughters of Moytoy chiefs that made them “princesses”. Europeans had nothing else to compare their status to.


    I just caught the comment about my “white kin” who attended schools. You arrogant fool. You know nothing about me or my family.

    My Grandfather worked in a coal mine as a kid, lied at 16 and said he was 18 to enlist and serve during WWII and spent the entire war in combat. While in Europe he learned French and Polish with an education that ended in 5th grade. When he returned he married my grandmother and moved the family to Detroit where they linked up with a Native community there. He came from a family of 13. All of his brothers and sisters left the mountains with him. My Grandmother had to drop out in 3rd grade because she had 15 brothers and sisters and her family was too poor for shoes. She still can’t read or write in her 80’s. My grandparents had crossed burned on their lawns, were told they couldn’t eat in the same restaurants as whites and grew up under laws that did not even have the option of self-identifying because of white racist scumbags like Plecker.

    Nobody in my family is “Black Dutch” you twit. Do you even know anything at all about the true Melungeons? Or did you just read some article by those white in Tennessee pretending to be Melungeons because they have some black ancestors they’re ashamed of? The Magoffin Melungeons were there when Daniel Boone made his first trip into Kentucky. A “black Indian” showed him through the mountains all the way to Floyd and showed him that the region has towns. Boone was then sent back to Virginia. He paid a Melungee as a guide. This was before the Chickamauga Wars. Before the Wataugans. Before the Cumberland was opened up by Richard Henderson, John Sevier and those rogue Cherokee who sold lands that weren’t theirs to sell at the Treaty of Sycamore Shoals.

    Texas Cherokee, Creek, etc? Give me a break. What makes a people is the lands they become a people in. My ancestors have been in those mountains since before the Europeans began arriving. Back before the French were referring to them as Melange (Mixed). Before the French were calling the Shawnee “Chouraqui”.

    You come in here with all that nonsense about folks goin’ white. The Cherokee Nation and Creek Nation are the biggest bunch of apples out there. Give me a break with that Trump shit. I don’t vote but in case you stupid Southern Democrats forgot the Civil War was between Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats. It was Andrew Jackson (a Democrat) who signed the Indian Removal Act. The KKK was a branch of the Southern Democrats. F–k outta here with that political bs.


      Melungeons created their own unique culture that is different from traditional Native. The fact that they were multi-racial in a different environment adds to that. I too have Melungeon blood through the Fleeman’s of Virginia on my maternal side, so yes I am aware of them and their culture. Do you really know the real history of Tsali? Doubt it. What has been portrayed by the EBCI is a farce and has led to or greatly contributed to the wannabe plague. However, to claim Melungeon then state names like Conseen, seems a little odd at best. I know many of the Conseen’s and I doubt they would agree with you. I can put you in touch with them if you like! All the other names you mention, big deal, doesn’t mean squat.

      When people have to start swearing to get a point across, I know they don’t know what they are talking about. No sir, you do not know who I am, nor what I do, nor whom I do it for, so playing Indian versus wannabe logic is not in the mix. It was you who used the words “paper Indian”, so all that tells me is you cannot prove squat, not now nor ever, then get all in a twist when called out. You have a good day sir as I have heard enough Ikshe to last me quite a`while. Our conversation is done, but I wish you well.


      Neanderthal mentality cursing is not required to emphasize a point. You didn’t know what you were talking about in the first post, which had nothing to do with you, nor do you show signs of anything relevant now. No one is talking about Melungeons, but they cannot prove Native blood either. I have never referred to them as wannabes, although I know a lot who do. I too had Melungeon ancestors maternally. Listed as “Free persons of Color” on one record and “Indian” on another. However, they have lost all tribal identity as they mixed together for survival. Much the same with the Lumbee, whom my company worked with in the 80’s to get the stupid Lumbee Act overturned. So you sir, know nothing of me, but your post reeks of wannabe theology. Has nothing to do with or without Melungeon ancestry, it is you sir and your views on Indian Country. So again, I did feel the need to address your low ball reply in that you have to drop down to curse words to express simple thoughts. Our conversations are over, although I doubt this will be your last. Why don’t we stick to Creek data as POOF was established for. That was my post to Richard Thrornton, not to you. Something in it offended you. Too bad, get over it as it wasn’t addressed to you. My point dealt with Indians in Texas, now you have us talking about Melungeons in Virginia. Need to get back on track Mr. Rex. If you want to continue your low brow Trumpery, please do so with my e-mail address and thereby spare POOF of vitriol. Have a great day

      • contact@jonathanrex.con'

        I’m not Melungeon. My grandmother’s best friend since childhood was a woman named “Tiny” Gibson. Clearly a black and Native mixed woman. Knew her well and know her granddaughters who are all my age and they are clearly mixed also. I’m German-Scottish on my father’s side and Native on my mother’s side with a couple Scots ans Sephardic Jews thrown in the mix. I’m not claiming any specific tribe. Got ancestors from several.

        As for knowing the Conseens, congrats. Some of them are with the EBCI and others are with the CNO. All of them are descendants of Dragging Canoe as am I. Yes, I also know the story of Tsali. Unless you’re referring to some other story I haven’t heard but mine didn’t come from books.

        I overreacte because there is a Lakota online who is with a Cherokee girl there in Tahlequah who is as urban as they come and he’s been trashing various other Indians online (one a fried of mine from the Kewa). I did a research on dude’s genealogy and found more white than Native. Ironic considering he’s constantly trashing anybody who is mixed. Was reading some of his attacks on other natives (not me) right before reading your posts. I’ve also had to defend the melungeon girls I’m frieds with in the past from another Indians.

        I overal-reacted. Apologies from my end.

        • Y’all just remember that this is a Muskogean hosted site, where we follow the Spiritual Path. We encourage free thought and descriptions of independent research, but please never get into personal attacks on individuals. That’s what the Sikuya Hvtke’s do all over the web. We like to think that we are more civilized (and mentally stable) than the Sikuya Hvtke’s.

          Richard T.


          Thank you Jonathan. It takes a heck of a man to own up. My apologies as well for over reacting. May you have a great day

      • Y’all just remember that this is a Muskogean hosted site, where we follow the Spiritual Path. We encourage free thought and descriptions of independent research, but please never get into personal attacks on individuals. That’s what the Sikuya Hvtke’s do all over the web. We like to think that we are more civilized (and mentally stable) than the Sikuya Hvtke’s.

        Richard T.


    This will be my last post but it needs to be said:

    Jews who were forced at different periods throughout their history to hide their identity, take up new names and even pretend to be converts to Christianity never stopped being Jewish in private. Proclaiming yourself a Jew when surrounded by Nazis wouldn’t be brave . . . it would be suicide. No Jew that I know of has ever disclaimed those Jews who were forced to hide their identities to survive. Anti-Semites will dig through history hunting down the Crypto-Jews (hiding their identities). It’s a hobby for racist white people to find Jews wherever they can. But Jews when finding out they have family who went through that embrace them and bring them back in to the community when they try to recover what was taken from them.

    Why does this not apply to Native Americans? This is why Native Americans have lost everything. Too many of the people have no loyalty to each other. Jews survived over 2,500 years of surrounding people trying to destroy them. Why? Because they stuck together and helped each other. Many Indians are petty and selfish, easily turned against each other. The Spanish, British and French figured this out. They bought the loyalty of Indians for shells and trinkets and put weapons in the hands of Indians to kill other Indians. Then they would arm the other Indians to retaliate. They’d pay Indians to take the scalps of other Indians and select individuals whom they knew could be bought out. They are still doing this, only now they do it through their “Tribal Governments”. Those of you who help this genocide along by acting as attack dogs on your own distant relatives just so you can feel special in your white man’s “recognition” are sell outs. Straight up.

    None of this applies to me. My family never denied their identity. Every white person around them knew they were Indians. They lived and interacted daily with the real Melungeons. My grandparents weren’t even Christians until the 1980’s. My great-grandparents never were. My own mother converted when I was 7. I’m not and never will be. How quickly did those of you sitting up on your high horse convert? The Cherokee began converting back in the early 1800’s. Before removal. They were owning some of the wealthiest slave plantations in the south. Stand Watie? The Vanns? They owned steam boats and Chief Charles R. Hicks had the largest private library in the United States at the time. Y’all wanna act like you had it worse than those like Tsali and others who stayed in the mountains? Get real. Nobody in their right mind is buying that shit you’re shovelin’. Only white Indians who don’t know the truth believe that crap. I’m willing to bet you have light hair and eyes. Sitting over there playin Captain Indian.

    Yes, I ranted here. And I regret letting you get to me but your kind irk me. Not for my sake. You can’t reject me and my mother’s family. We come from the Conseens, Allens, Shepherds, Packs, Hicks, Whitakers, Jones, Manns and others. To even think you can talk to me that way and project all your own self-loathing onto me is a joke. I see straight through you, J.C.


      You should see the comment that JC Thompson made on the Facebook Page “Cherokee Indian Research”. He said no white man snuck into Cherokee Nation at took Cherokee women. That’s just like saying that there are no illegal aliens in America. He claims to be a genealogist and a historian. What university did he go to? What are his credentials? Until he provides that information, I’m not going to believe his claims.

      He fails to mention that there wasn’t a spot for Indian when the first Federal Census was taken in 1790 until after 1870. Mixed blood Natives were listed as white in some states, and mulatto in others (especially Virginia).

      The first Cherokee rolls was the Reservation Rolls of 1817. I have an undocumented 5th great-grandmother who was a full-blooded Cherokee born in Cherokee Nation, NC, who migrated to southern Kentucky with her husband, William Adams. She gave birth to my 4th great-grandmother in 1783. My 4th great-grandmother pre-dated the birth of the first white child born in Southern KY by 8 years. His name was David Chapman, born October 23, 1791. I got that from The Courier-Journal (Louisville, Kentucky), Tuesday, April 17, 1956, page 29. And there was no way that my Cherokee ancestor could have been on the Cherokee Reservation Rolls. She passed away at least 30 years before. And their children were orphans, yet, no documentation exists on that since Quakers have been known to adopt Native children without letting the US Government know.

      My 4th great-grandmother’s husband was half Monacan Indian, and half white. He was born in Amherst County, VA. There was no marriage bond for his parents since it was illegal for a white person to marry a non-white in VA since 1691 until the Loving Vs. Virginia in which the US Supreme declared Virginia’s anti-miscegenation statute, the “Racial Integrity Act of 1924”, unconstitutional, as a violation of the 14th Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause. He and his father left Amherst one year before the Monacan Rolls were taken in 1800 (the only rolls they have).

      In 1830, when the Indian Removal Act was passed, my 4th great-grandparents left Kentucky and moved to Putnam County, Indiana, with the Quakers. My family had no oral history. I found some things on Ancestry and through historical societies. One of their sons became a Quaker minister.

      He claims that there aren’t Berryhill ties to the Uchee (Yuchi). Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. His argument his week. Why? The Indian removal was the beginning of the end for the Yuchi tribe. Some live on in and around Sapulpa. Some Yuchi fled to Florida and joined the Seminole, where Uchee Billy was Chief a century ago. Others of mixed heritage successfully “passed as white,” and remained on eastern lands. However, this required hiding all evidence of their Indian heritage for generations and often subjected them to enduring racial slurs, loss of voting rights and many other marginalizing attacks from the Dominant culture. Today, the tribal Yuchi in Oklahoma number a few hundred and are partly assimilated into the Creek and Seminole Nations. Hardly anyone speaks the language, and only books and a few oral traditions preserve the “Eastern” traditions of the Yuchi.

      JC saying that proving Cherokee blood is much easier than just about any tribe in the USA is like saying English ancestry is much easier than just about any nation in Europe. It makes no sense. Mentioning the Jim Crow Texas, he is playing the victim card. It also affected African and Asian Americans.

      His “mythical black dutch” comment is laughable at best. Check out the article “Blackfoot or Black Dutch? He’s a genealogist so he should know about this sight.


    We are not here to rehash this my ancestors were more Indian than yours business guys. Give it a rest for awhile & lets look at something that’s going on now & I don’t mean the pipeline protest though it sort of gives a clue about what is coming at us.
    Please check out an article in Reuters News & on the Daily Beast today, Its titled ” Trump advisory team proposing privatizing oil rich Native American reservations.” Two of Trump’s advisory team with their quotes below. Both are identified as Cherokees.
    Rep. Markwayne Mullins, Republican, Okla. Cherokee Tribal member & co-chair of Trump’s Native American Affairs Coalition. and I quote ” We should take tribal land away from public treatment as long as we can do it without unintended consequences. I think we will have broad support in Indian country. ” Say What?
    Ross Swimmer, ex-chief of Cherokee Nation. “It is possible to privatize the reservations while applying limits to any sales outside the Indian community. It has to be done with an eye toward protecting sovereignty.” Whatever that means. No comment on this to either news outlet from Trump’s advisory team.
    So given what Trump says about re-negotiating treaties I suggest maybe Native American Treaties may be in his sights if he & his friends can get rich off it. They will use their excuse that it is for the betterment for the country & will bring jobs. We must be vigilant. By the way I am a registered Independent & did not vote for Trump or Hilary if it matters.


    I have a 4th great-grandmother whose name was Elizabeth Patterson, born on 1789 in Abbeville County, South Carolina, the daughter of John Patterson and an unknown mother. She might have been part Creek from her mother’ s side, but I don’t know. I know that she is not the daughter of William Patterson and Elizabeth Ladd. They were from North Carolina, Quakers, and their children are documented, and they didn’t have a daughter named Elizabeth. If you have any advice to find out her ancestry, that would be awesome.

    She was “married” to a Michael W Taylor, born in 1789 in swamps of Core Creek, Craven County, NC to a Susannah (maiden name unknown) and an Unidentified Taylor. Susannah might have been mixed with Tuscarora, but I can’t put my finger on it.

    Jonathan Rex, I know about Walter Plecker. My 6th great-grandmother was a full blooded Monacan, the wife of Thomas Evans, who died in Amherst County, VA in 1774. Their daughter, Mary, was the wife of my 5th great-grandfather, David Bly, listed on the Earliest Settlers of Old Amherst. There was no marriage bond for them, probably because it was illegal since it was an interracial marriage. I also have a Charity Adams, born in 1783 in Southern Kentucky, to a William Adams and an unknown mother. Supposedly, her father was born in North Carolina, but I can’t find proof of it. And Charity claimed to be an orphan in 1800 when she got married, and nobody signed for her. I know that Adams is a common surname among the Pamunkey tribe in Virginia. Maybe he came from Virginia, or his ancestors did. It’s a dead end.


    Richard Thornton, your initial post touched on the issue I have been peripherally researching in attempt to follow my Mama’s mother “back to Alabama.” I read some of your other posts first and commented there, but they were unique and informative enough that I linked them on my FB page with the caption that you have cred,; your name, Thornton. (I have been looking at the same Chatt Valley Ga and now, Al censuses for so long, I’d seen it over and over.) I am thrilled to hear you are *our* Thornton, though! I grew up in Kenwood, and did my growing up on the southside, having back in the “old days” a blog, Southside Atlanta Memories. I have been working in local history down here in PC FL for a number of years, so I was very familiar with the ways different people groups here had survived, including my own over in St Johns>Alachua area. I knew there had to be some correlation up there. If anyone is interested: I am not “proving my someone is an Indian princess” but wanting to know where people “hid” and what the mores of the area were/are. I am looking for someone that has been difficult to find, so I thought I would start looking under popular rocks. Thank you for all the insight and especially the confirmation on names I have been running into in my research. Two resources that have given me some insight into our area: 1493, Charles Mann, and an old document I just ran upon; I am sure you all can explicate it for me- it is concerning an investigation into land fraud allegations c 1832 Chambers Co AL This is an index; following I will post link to book on Google books that has the full text. Transcription into a modern print book that is easier to read Thank you again for your site and I look forward to learning more.

    • Hey Jewell

      I don’t know anything about the Chambers County Land Fraud. However, Chambers County, AL has a very active and sophisticated historical society, who might able to explain things.


      Wow. No wonder my Hall Ray left that area in 1825…….

  14. MAD33777@MSN.Com'

    Its refreshing to finaly hear someone of native descent that truly knows our history of our appalation native people, not this c.o.n. and e.b.c.’s Anglo brainwashing that all Cherokee and creeks are the most documented indigenous peoples in eastern north america and can all be traced to a few government rolls. There are some of us who knows who we are and doesn’t need the b.i.a. to tell us who we are. Keep up the good work.


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