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Footnote: The Maya Migration Legend begins on ice!

Footnote:  The Maya Migration Legend begins on ice!


I have been doing research, trying to find out who the “tall skinny giants” that were the ancestors of the Upper Creeks and also founded Teotihuacan and Cholula.  In the process, I came upon some interesting information.

Of course,  only a province in north-central Yucatan called themselves Maiam (Lakes-Place of) until the Spanish called all the indigenous peoples in extreme southern Mexico, Guatemala, Belize and Honduras “Mayas,” but a Mexican anthropological paper had some very interesting information.  The Migration Legend of the collective peoples, called “Maya,” begins on ice.  They were living in a land, covered in ice, but were driven out of their homeland by giants.  They then migrated due south until they reached a great body of water and crossed it on canoes then came to a land, where there was never any snow . . . except on the tops of high mountains.  This suggests that their ancestors originated from that region in Northwestern Siberia, which had no ice cap during the Ice Age then migrated across the Arctic Region and then southward across eastern North America.  

In 2018, Danish and German geneticists determined that the ancestors of American Indians originated in that ice free zone and became separated from the ancestors of modern Siberians around 25,000 years ago.  The European scientists assumed that the Proto-American Indians then migrated eastward several thousand miles to the Bering Strait without having any carnal knowledge of the Siberians living in the region.  That seems implausible.  It makes more sense that Proto-American Indians took the Polar Circle route, just like passenger jets do today.  Flights from New York to Hong Kong fly over Canada!  It’s just a theory from a former goat herder, but I have never believed that all the indigenous peoples came across the Bering Straight . . . especially now that we know that there was no route into the heart of North America, during the brief period when there was an ice-free land bridge between Siberia and Alaska.  Keep in mind that the North Pole has migrated a lot during the ages.  It is moving toward eastern Siberia at a rather rapid rate right now!   PS – The Algonquians share several basic words with the Gaels of Ireland and Scotland.  They must have been connected in the past. In fact,  I suspect that relatives of the Algonquians were the indigenous people of Ireland and western England . . . the original builders of Stonehenge. There were stonehenges in Canada 500 years before they appeared in the British Isles. 

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Richard Thornton is a professional architect, city planner, author and museum exhibit designer-builder. He is today considered one of the nation’s leading experts on the Southeastern Indians. However, that was not always the case. While at Georgia Tech Richard was the first winner of the Barrett Fellowship, which enabled him to study Mesoamerican architecture and culture in Mexico under the auspices of the Institutio Nacional de Antropoligia e Historia. Dr. Roman Piňa-Chan, the famous archaeologist and director of the Museo Nacional de Antropologia, was his fellowship coordinator. For decades afterward, he lectured at universities and professional societies around the Southeast on Mesoamerican architecture, while knowing very little about his own Creek heritage. Then he was hired to carry out projects for the Muscogee-Creek Nation in Oklahoma. The rest is history. Richard is the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the KVWETV (Coweta) Creek Tribe and a member of the Perdido Bay Creek Tribe. In 2009 he was the architect for Oklahoma’s Trail of Tears Memorial at Council Oak Park in Tulsa. He is the president of the Apalache Foundation, which is sponsoring research into the advanced indigenous societies of the Lower Southeast.



    Short article, lots of curious thoughts.

    What is a “giant”? Considering how short many of the per-Columbian groups were, a “normal sized” 6 foot tall Norse ancestor would be seen as giants by the short people. So the story does not require a violation of expected human biology.

    I like the map that went along with the article. Has there been any effort made to match the geographic information in the stories to a possible route?

    Can you put up an article on the Canadian henge structures?

    • Creek men towered over the Norse – typical was 6’3″ to 7′. The commander of Creek forces in the American Revolution was 7 feet tall and 93 years old, when killed in a battle.

      There are many articles and a couple of books on the Canadian stone henges. The prime researcher is Dr. Gordon Freeman of the University of Alberta. He has been working on archaeological sites in Wales in recent years. He found artifacts similar to those in eastern Canada.


    Are there additional maps showing the probable location of the North Pole and the time period depicted? Also, maps showing the projected progressions through North, Central, and South America? Very interesting!

    • Mary Jane, I merely took a screen shot of the earth from above, using Google Earth Pro. If you zoom in with Google Earth, you can see many, many islands in the North Atlantic and Arctic Oceans that would have been above water in the Ice Age.


    Richard, Always something new from you! Could the Maya Elders been speaking about Greenland and with boats like the Vikings did (Normanvilla 1527) made their way down the coast to Savanna,Ga? Toma-chi-chi said the ancient kings were entombed at Savanna? (pre-Dorset people 3300-2200 BC) Later the Inuit people of Greenland that arrived about 1300 AD did speak of Giants that left about the time of “the little ice age”… likely along with the Vikings that had the ships to move to the South East. “Inuit legends recount them encountering people they called the Tuniit (singular Tuniq) or Sivullirmiut “First Inhabitants”. According to legend, the first Inhabitants were giants, taller and stronger than the Inuit but afraid to interact and “easily put to flight. There is also a controversial theory of contact and trade between the Dorset and the Norse promoted by Patricia Sutherland.”

    • I don’t know all the article said was that they LIVED on the ice and then migrated southward. That does not sound like that they came across the Bering Strait.


    Richard T., Very interesting post. Do you happen to know if there’s an English version of the Mexican anthropological paper with the information about the migration legend of the collective peoples called “Maya”?

    If it is true that their homeland was somewhere in Siberia it could explain the following word similarities.

    At some point in time everyone or at least most will have heard (or read) about the “Yeti”.

    The word/name Yeti is derived from Tibetan Yachê (ya “rocky”,”rocky place” and chê “bear”). The Yeti is also known as the “Abominable Snowman”.
    Many people believe Yeti to be a wild man or primate with gigantic size somewhere between 8ft to 10ft tall.

    It is believed that the Yeti inhabits countries like Afghanistan, Nepal, Bhutan, India, Pakistan, China (Tibet), Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Russia (Siberia); Regions: Himalayas, Siberia, Mongolia and East Asia.

    In scandinavian languages there are words for giant which are similar to “yeti”.

    Finnish: jätti = giant, goliath, behemoth, monster, colossus
    Finnish: jättiläinen = giant, goliath, behemoth, monster, colossus
    Swedish: jätte = giant
    Danish: jætte (jötunn, jotun) = giant
    Danish: Ymir-jætte (Ymir) = giant (primeordial giant in Nordic Myth)
    Icelandic: jötunn = giant

    Maybe it’s just coincidence yet if Siberia truly is the homeland of many native ‘north’ Americans the possible migration route of at least the Proto-Algonquians could explain the word similarities for “Yeti”(giant?) from the Himalayas, Siberia through Finland, Sweden, Denmark to Iceland.

    • I can’t even find the article that I got that information from. It was primarily about the origins of Toltecs and the Aztecs. It noted that the Migration Legends of the Aztecs and Mayas are quite different in that the Mayas believed that their ancestors had migrated southward from a land covered with ice. I then went to the reference on which that statement was based and got the rest of the story. Just now, I did find articles ini English stating that the Mayas were now believed to migrated southward from North America around 2600 BC.


        If you all have not noticed it, the date of 2600 BC (or there abouts) gets brought up a lot in Richard’s posts. Something bug happened around then when had profound impact on the distribution of the world’s human population. Richard has been concentrating on North America and Northern Europe. I do wonder if this date is significant on other continents.


        Thank you for your reply. The peopling of the Americas is very complex and it only seems to get more complex before anyone can come to a final conclusion.

        Do you think there is a possibility that the Scandinavian words “jätti”; “jätte”; “jætte” and “jötunn” meaning “giant” are derived from the Tibetan (Himalayan/Siberian) word “Yachê”/”Yeti”?
        Perhaps you’re able to find a similar word (words) in one of the Algonquianian languages/dialects. Who knows, maybe the ‘tall giant’ ancestors of the upper Creeks were once known as “jätti” (Yachê/Yeti).


    Hi, Richard,

    The subject of giants has been a preoccupation of mine for some few years now. And especially in that many races of New World giants such as the Quinametzin of Mexico — and, not just overly tall people at near 7 feet, but true giants…that is, 9 to 10 feet and well upward — might be linked specifically to the ancient Nephilim of the Bible. Linked, that is, if not as immigrants by boat (though some might have been), then at least as to their particular origin. Biblical Nephilim were the descendants of fallen angels (the willful Watchers, Gregori), fallen because in disobedience to God they left their “first estate” and settled on Earth to intermarry with human females (Genesis 6), siring the great men of old, the giants of legend. Similarly, in the vernacular of many Indigenous Americans, the “star people” or “sky people” of their acquaintance were from off-world, and would enter into our domain through specific geographic locations…portals…to take wives and produce giant offspring. Over time, these portals, like Mount Graham in Arizona, were considered sacred and to be greatly avoided. Oral traditions tell us that the hybrid giants of the ancient American Southwest were often fearsome pillagers, violent and cannibalistic, and were locally referred to as the “Cloudeaters.”
    In any case, as is true with almost all forced out-crossing, these genetically corrupted offspring, just as was true in the Middle East Bible lands, invariably expressed biological hybrid vigor (heterosis), and in the Americas, gigantism in the extreme. It is an absolute fact, as reported in many newspapers articles of the 19th and early 20th centuries, that when many of the great mounds of the “Moundbuilders” of the eastern US were being destroyed for land clearing, or for treasures they might contain, or for valuable artifacts, that huge skeletons were frequently uncovered, many reliably measured by professionals to be greater than 12 feet. There are literally hundreds of such articles reporting the same enormous dimensions, monstrous heights faithfully measured.
    This is not to say that Native Americans of the Southeast US who were and still are very tall were the descendants of alien intruders from beyond. But they might show unusual height at least partly because of similar, though not nearly as extreme, outcrossing…again, heterosis. Here, though, were marriages between indigenous and purely human companies — various peoples who were coming together from vastly different genetic stocks, as was true of the great melting pot that was ancient Georgia…and it happened repeatedly in the distant past.
    For anyone who might like to know more along these lines, start with Steve Quayle’s exhaustive references at His books and DVDs are a great place to begin.
    Thanks Richard for all your fine efforts in squeezing the truth out of our terribly tangled history, and for being an open forum for alternative suggestions of the real past. Yours is a greatly needed page.
    All the best,
    Ed Guidry


    Hi Richard… My ongoing curiosity about who we are, what we’re doing here, and what’s going to become of us has lead me down some interesting rabbit holes. One of the things that has surfaced recently is the genetic ancestor now known as the Denisovan. One of my pastimes is to load a you tube to entertain me while I bead. Granted, some of these are WAY outside the box, so you can take it or leave it (Andrew Collins, The Cygnus Key) and it’s lengthy, but he has an interesting postulate. He proposes that there’s now a DNA signature for the Denisovan from the remains found in eastern Russia, that they were ‘giants’, that their DNA didn’t go east into Europe and overlap with Neandertal, but rather is found in North America, primarily among the Algonquin in the northeast and most densely in the Chippewa. Enjoy. Nancy

    • It is true that the Denisovan DNA is showing up in Native Americans, but the highest levels are in Australoids in New Guinea and Australia.


    Nancy Littlefish and Richard T.,

    Since you mentioned Denisovan, Australoids and New Guinea the following might interest you.

    Reuters – Science News: “Siberian cave findings shed light on enigmatic extinct human species” – January 30, 2019 – by Will Dunham


    “Scientists last year described a Denisova Cave bone fragment of a girl whose mother was a Neanderthal and father a Denisovan, evidence of interbreeding. The girl, nicknamed “Denny,” lived around 100,000 years ago, the new research showed.”

    “Pendants made of animal teeth and bone points from the cave were determined to be between 43,000 and 49,000 years old. They may have been crafted by Denisovans, suggesting a degree of intellectual sophistication.”

    ““Traditionally these objects are associated in Western Europe with the expansion of our species, and are seen as hallmarks of behavioral modernity, but in this case Denisovans may be their authors,” said archaeological scientist Katerina Douka of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Germany.”

    The Journal of The Polynesian Society – Volume 53 1944 > Volume 53, No. 2 > Constructional parallels in Scandinavian and Oceanic boat construction, by James Hornell, p 43-58


    “Taken together, these similarities, some of little importance alone, in their cumulative effect are sufficient to suggest the existence in prehistoric times of a diffusion or perhaps a continuity of certain forms of material culture, particularly in boat-design and the fashioning of weapons, between the island peoples of the western Pacific and the people inhabiting the Scandinavian region of northern Europe. Such relationship could only be possible by way of the sea and coast lands along the Arctic shores of Siberia, or that of the river systems of Central Asia.”

    “The boat-culture of the Pacific is, I believe, far older than is generally believed. There is no inherent improbability in the extension during prehistoric times of the wanderings of a bold and hardy seafaring people from an original centre on the shores or islands of the Pacific, westward to Europe along the coast of Siberia as it then was.”

    Science – “Was this ancient person from China the offspring of modern humans and Neandertals?” – October 12, 2017 – by Ann Gibbons


    “The team calculated that the Tianyuan Man inherited about as much Neandertal DNA—4% to 5%—as ancient Europeans and Asians of similar age. That’s a bit higher than the 1.8% to 2.6% of Neandertal DNA in living Europeans and Asians.”

    “The Tianyuan Man did not have any detectable DNA from Denisovans”

    “A big surprise is that the Tianyuan Man shares DNA with one ancient European—a 35,000-year-old modern human from Goyet Caves in Belgium. But he doesn’t share it with other ancient humans who lived at roughly the same time in Romania and Siberia—or with living Europeans. But the Tianyuan Man is most closely related to living people in east Asia—including in China, Japan, and the Koreas—and in Southeast Asia, including Papua New Guinea and Australia.”

    “The Tianyuan Man also was a distant relative of Native Americans living today in the Amazon of South America, such as the Karitiana and Surui peoples of Brazil and the Chane people of northern Argentina and southern Bolivia. They inherited about 9% to 15% of their DNA from an ancestral population in Asia that also gave rise to the Tianyuan Man. But he is not an ancestor to ancient or living Native Americans in North America, which suggests there were two different source populations in Asia for Native Americans.”

    “This is welcome news to Skoglund, who found in a separate study in 2015 that the Karitiana and Surui peoples are closely related to indigenous Australians, New Guineans, and Andaman Islanders. At the time, he predicted that they came from the same “ghost” source population in Asia, which was separate from another Asian population that gave rise to Native Americans in North America.”

    BBC News – “Taiwan aborigines keep rituals alive” – December 7, 2006 – by Caroline Gluck


    “the Saisiyat people – one of Taiwan’s 12 officially-recognised aboriginal groups – lived in mountains next to a tribe of dark-skinned dwarves, or pygmies.”

    “The short-people were both feared and admired by the Saisiyat as they were thought to have magical powers. But they also had bad tempers, and often flirted and made advances towards the Saisiyat women.”

    ScienceDirect: “Cebú, Thailand and Taiwanese aboriginal populations according to Y-STR loci” – LiLi, Yanli Xu, Javier Rodriguez Luis, Miguel A. Alfonso-Sanchez, Zhaoshu Zeng, Ralph Garcia-Bertrand, Rene J. Herrera


    “The Bunun, Saisiyat and Yunlin tribes of central Taiwan characterize a more diffuse group of native populations. All the non-Taiwanese aboriginal populations in this cluster reside in the Solomon Islands of Near Oceania.”

    “To account for this greater differentiation of the Bunun, Saisiyat and Yunlin tribes, it is possible that the Bunun, Saisiyat and Yunlin groups represent an earlier arrival of MSEA groups to Taiwan that then migrated inland and became isolated in the less accessible regions of the island.”

    When you have read the quotes and articles you will see that Siberia must have been the dispersal place of proto Native Americans which could also explain why there are nearly identical boat/canoe technology in Oceania (The Pacific) and Scandinavia (Northern Europe). The core proto native Americans must have been a mixture of Denisovans and Neandertals or the so-called ghost ;source; population. In both the Pacific Ocean and Atlantic Ocean there were (and still are) nearly identical ship/boat/canoe technology which with relatively high probability originated somewhere along the Siberian coast when it was ice free. From this ice free Siberian coast proto native Americans migrated at least twice into the Americas.
    Seemingly Australo-Melanesian (or perhaps Australasian?) people migrated through Island- and mainland Southeast Asia to the north through China (Tianyan Man) reaching Siberia where they mixed with Denisovans and probably Neandertals (ghost “source” population?). While Denisovan mixed Australo-Melanesian people migrated along the Pacific rim ;which roughly overlaps the Pacific Ring of Fire; populated westcoast Americas (Australo-Melanesian DNA in some Aleutian Islanders; Cabecar in Central America and Amazonian tribes), the Neandertal mixed people migrated along the Atlantic (Ocean) rim and populated eastcoast Americas.
    The Denisovan DNA in modern Australians, Papuans and Melanesians seemingly is partially due to back migration via Taiwan now known as the Austronesian expansion into Oceania through Island Southeast Asia which can be proven by Aboriginal Taiwanese “Saisiyat” tribe who have legends about dark skinned people living near them (in Taiwan) and interacted (mixed) with eachother which their DNA is proof since they are relatively closely related to Solomon Islanders who are Melanesian.

    Solomon Islands canoes: – Solomon Islands Canoe – Solomon Islands Canoe – Solomon Islands Canoe – Solomon Islands Canoe


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