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People of One Fire Genetics and Language Message Board

People of One Fire Genetics and Language Message Board

 

If you have information or questions about the genetics and languages of Southeastern Native Americans, please post them here as comments.  You may also post information about genealogical discoveries.  It would be helpful if you put links to this page on your Facebook page, so the general public will be aware of its existence.  Your comments will not appear instantly because they are monitored, but will be published as soon as possible.  We intend this webpage to replace the old Creek-Southeast Message Board, which no longer exists. 

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Richard Thornton is a professional architect, city planner, author and museum exhibit designer-builder. He is today considered one of the nation’s leading experts on the Southeastern Indians. However, that was not always the case. While at Georgia Tech Richard was the first winner of the Barrett Fellowship, which enabled him to study Mesoamerican architecture and culture in Mexico under the auspices of the Institutio Nacional de Antropoligia e Historia. Dr. Roman Piňa-Chan, the famous archaeologist and director of the Museo Nacional de Antropologia, was his fellowship coordinator. For decades afterward, he lectured at universities and professional societies around the Southeast on Mesoamerican architecture, while knowing very little about his own Creek heritage. Then he was hired to carry out projects for the Muscogee-Creek Nation in Oklahoma. The rest is history. Richard is the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the KVWETV (Coweta) Creek Tribe and a member of the Perdido Bay Creek Tribe. In 2009 he was the architect for Oklahoma’s Trail of Tears Memorial at Council Oak Park in Tulsa. He is the president of the Apalache Foundation, which is sponsoring research into the advanced indigenous societies of the Lower Southeast.

18 Comments

  1. revcdp@gmail.com'

    Richard,

    I recently did the AncestryDNA test. All my life I had been told that my grandmother was part Cherokee. When the DNA results came back, I discovered that I had not a twirl on the Native American genetic swirl ladder. I did however have a good bit of Sephardic Jew DNA. Grandma and her mom did look far more Jewish than Cherokee.

    Reply
    • A lot of people in the Lower Southeast are making this discovery. Also, one of the most important Creek families of the late 1700s and early 1800s, which included General William McIntosh, had substantial Sephardic and Ashkinazi Jewish heritage.

      Reply
  2. abbahawk@hotmail.com'

    regarding genealogy. at overtonsonly@hotmail.com, they maintain a database of 15,000 Overtons, almost all American & biggest part SE US. many of the latter have traditions of native ancestry, mostly Creek. & one group has the Iberian Jewish YDNA, from the mining villages of East Tenn/West NC. They are always willing to help & pass on data.

    Reply
  3. theeps1@hotmail.com'

    I appreciate any assistance in my genealogical research in this area . . . I’ve only recently discovered relations from GA . . . This has led me to do some book, article, thesis & dissertation reading to get an understanding of the area/time . . . Relations I’ve found so far were located in northern GA . . . My AncestryDNA & 23andmeDNA results, and my father having said we have “Native American” have compelled me to look more into this possible connection

    Reply
    • Edward, you need to tell readers, what specific assistance you need.

      Reply
    • abbahawk@hotmail.com'

      for research, we use familytree.org it is free, & find-a-grave. & for genealogy program brotherskeeper is free download. I have used it 20+ years.

      Reply
  4. contact@jonathanrex.com'

    There is a very strong reason to believe (plenty of evidence) that the genetic results showing Sephardic Jewish (Iberian markers) is due to faulty assumptions by those interpreting the results. The exact same markers have been found in the mitochondrial (maternal) markers of several elongated skulls from Peru from 3,000 years ago. These markers have been called “Iberian” because they are found in Sephardic Jewish people from Morocco, Egypt, Israel, and Turkey who took these tests early on to trace their Jewish ancestry. The markers were labeled “Jewish” but the actual markers are older than Israel and the tribe of Judah. They weren’t Jews and Cherokee with these markers weren’t Jews. Some of these Cherokee, like some ancient Peruvians Paracans with elongated skulls, come from the same people as Sephardic Jews throughout the Iberian Peninsula who were called Phoenicians. They had reddish and blondish hair, light brown skin, and commonly had green eyes. They crossed to Mexico and Peru from West Africa along the South Atlantic current and spread out north along the eastern Native trade route that ran from Brazil up through the Yucatan, Mexico, the Natchez lands in Mississippi, throughout the islands of Cuba and Jamaica, and up through Florida into Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee. They also continued across the Pacific from Peru and settled in New Zealand prior to the Maori who themselves have told researchers there were lighter skinned, narrow nosed, red and blonde haired people with brown freckles there when they arrived. This is a trait many who identify as Cherokee but who don’t look “Indian” have. These people have all likely been in the Americas for 3,000 years and lived in every way as Natives among various tribes. They formed the ancient Kituwa tradition and may have descended from the Biblical Abraham’s 3rd wife Keturah.

    Abraham’s 3rd wife is almost never talked about. Her title was Uku’Keturah (The Owl of the Sacred Fire). Ukuku was Sumerian. Uku was the sound that the Ukuku made. She was said to have come from the lands that are now eastern Turkey, the exact same lands where the Paracas skulls of Peru come from through their mitochondrial markers. The Cherokee word Ukuku or Uguku also means “Owl” just as it did in Sumeria and “Ani” is a prefix used by the seven Cherokee Clans (Aniwaya = Wolf People). It means “people” just as it did in Ani, the capital city of Ancient Anatolia. Uku is a title given to the Beloved Man of the Cherokee and during the 1700’s was the name of one of Moytoy of Tellico’s sons: Uku’ulah. Attakullakulla was Ada’Uku’ulah also. The name was a title for all of the sons of, by birth or adoption, of Ama’matai. Not surprisingly the Samoan people also use the “Ama Matai” word for their chiefs who they call “F’amatai. It meant “Water Masters”. Chi’riccia’riccua in Peru meant “Hawks of Five Waters” or “The Hawks of Five Seas”. All over North and South America ancient remains of red and blond haired people with hawk-like nose bone structures have been found.

    There were Jews who mixed in with the Cherokee throughout the 1600’s and 1700’s so this complicates issues a bit in determining which is which. Sequoyah’s English name was George Gist because his father Nathaniel Gist was Jewish. Mordecai Gist was a cousin of Nathaniel Gist and Christopher Gist (mentor to the young President George Washington) was the paternal grandfather of Sequoyah. Sequoyah’s mother was half African and Cherokee. Culturally Sequoyah was raised Cherokee and had no identity with either his white or black sides though so people who focus on that are just being _____________ (fill in the blank). James Adair of Ireland (the merchant) was Jewish so all Cherokee, Creeks, and Chickasaw with the last name Adair are part-Jewish. Christian Priber of Germany was also Jewish so any Natives with that name are as well. Most modern “fullblood” Cherokee are a mix of Scottish with Native. But the traditional Kituwa were a matrilineal priesthood in all of the Mississippian Era towns. Wherever there was a sacred fire kept burning in a temple atop a mound or pyramid there were red headed, lighter skinned, Kituwa priests. They are who Kukulkan or Quetzalcoatl stories were based on – The Feathered Serpent and Double Serpent symbolism through Ancient American cultures is rooted in this esoteric gnostic cult of the Serpent that traces back into Ancient Egypt, Ancient Sumeria, and Ancient India. Most likely its roots are in Gobekli Tepi. Queen Nefertiti came from the same matrilineal priestess line of these people. It was the matrilineal line that mattered among these people and is why so many white people have great-grandma “Cherokee Princess” stories. It was “Priestess” and not “Princess”. Most of these people who take a DNA test will discover that their matrilineal line appears to be Sephardic Jewish because Sephardic Jews are the only modern recognized people to carry the markers today.

    Reply
    • andreasost@hotmail.com'

      The difference between the Israelites & Phoenicians, was only religious. Their languages/dialects were mutually understandable? & there was continual interaction in Biblical times. So the genetics back then would have been the same. ANI is Hebrew for “I’ or “Me”.

      Reply
      • Thank you! Keep on making comments. This is why we created the message board.

        Reply
      • contact@jonathanrex.com'

        Right, but before anybody ever mentioned a Yehuda (Judah) or Isis-Ra-El (Israel) there were people called Phoenicians and genetically these people originated with distinct markers in what is now Eastern Turkey. They stem from the oldest verified ancient agricultural society that formed near Gobekli Tepi and spread out. Those ancient people became the Scythians and Phoenicians, Habiru (Hebrew), and Aryans of India. Some also spread east into China. The word Wodan (Odin) attests to this. Wodan was a Scythian word for a Shaman or Wizard. Wido was a variant of the word in China. The Viking Odin was a Scythian wizard who traveled to Scandinavia and founded the Viking royal line which King Hrothgar came from. Slavic people also come from those ancient Scythians. As they spread out from Central Eurasia the Celtic and Pictish people moved west into what is now Poland before continuing into Germany, France and the British islands. At the same time they spread out around the Iberian Peninsula with their genetics mutating in different regions. There is a clan among the Cherokee called the Ani’tawodi (Hawk People) which has been shortened to Ani’wodi (Red Paint Clan). The word Wodi comes from Wodan. The Ani’tawodi or Ani’wodi were the clan that made the war paint and produced medicine men and medicine women. The history of the world is far more complex than the simplistic narratives can explain. The idea of the “Indian” was fabricated by pseudo-scientist Europeans who had already decided that all Natives in the Americas had come across from Siberia into Alaska. We know that’s not true now. Without a doubt. The Vikings crossed regularly from 1,000 years ago on and called eastern Canada “Vinland”. Africans under Abu Bukari II crossed form West Africa to the Yucatan before Columbus and even Columbus made note that there were black tribes at war with the brown skinned tribes. The Spaniards even supplied the brown skinned tribes with weapons to defeat the much stronger black skinned tribes in exchange for gold and offered to help them. The Spanish made slaves of those black skinned tribes when they captured many of them, relocating them to different regions. Not all African Americans today are from people who were brought from Africa as slaves. Some crossed on their own and became slaves later through warfare in the Americas. Hell, two of the men that sailed with Columbus (the Nino brothers) were black men. They piloted two of the ships and had already visited the Americas before him which is how he was so certain they could reach new lands by that route. The history taught is a watered down linear narrative. It makes for simple explanations but it’s not true at all.

        Reply
  5. 50brickwalls@comcast.net'

    I need help to locate and identify Choctaw in Oklahoma, possibly Chickasaw or Creek too. My ggrandmother and her father were full blood Choctaw and registered Dawes and both born Indian Territory. But her mother died when she was young (1878) and the family name has been lost. Records for this period of Indian Territory are very scarce and dna is hopefully a way to identify previous generations. I also have 2 cousins who are also Native American at 25% and 35% and one of them from our male line who matches no one for Y-dna. My mt-dna is A2, widely accepted as the Americas thousands of years ago. Family surname is Brown but does not match other Brown’s. They lived in McAlester/Atoka area for many years. I’ve tested ancestry, 23andme and Family Tree dna with all uploaded to gedmatch. On the genetics side I need help because there are very few segments we all match that are the same. In fact, we have lots of matches with many other Choctaw families. There is apparently no Jewish dna and no African American or very little. One person who I match on a very small segment says possibly Catawba / Saponi. I recently found a statement from a uncle who said our maternal grandfather (other side) was distant Cherokee. 95% of my maternal ancestry comes from the south but I am unable to identify who these people were. My ancestral history is heavy on North Atlantic, Irish, Scottish, Swedish and German with the NA at 12%. My paternal line is mostly French Canadian with the Swedish and German immigrants. I was adopted so I have no family stories. Please contact me at 50brickwallsatcomcast.net if you can assist me, know any good leads or someone I can hire to help sort this out.

    Reply
    • Have you considered that your family was Uchee, who were assigned to a Choctaw area? Brown is a very common Uchee family name, both in Oklahoma and Georgia. Virtually, none of the Uchee in eastern Georgia were deported to either Alabama or Oklahoma during the Trail of Tears period. Then, during the Second and Third Seminole Wars, hundreds of Uchee families in eastern Georgia, who were legally citizens of the state, were illegally arrested, their property seized and given to white planters, then marched in chains to the Alabama line. From their they had to make their way to Oklahoma, but were assigned to Choctaw territory. I know that all my Uchee relatives, who were rounded up, were forced to live in the Choctaw Nation and then were put on the Dawes List as Choctaws . . . even though they didn’t have a drop of Choctaw blood. The Uchee and Creeks in Northeast Georgia, who were Methodists, escaped this outrage because the Methodist Church protected them. Baptist Uchees were generally not protected by their congregations.

      Reply
      • 50brickwalls@comcast.net'

        Thanks Richard. Yes I am interested to check Uchee markers. How do I find out Uchee markers? I also have a lot of matches in Georgia, North Carolina and Alabama. My McElhaney lines (VA to AR to OK) married Cox, Jones, Ledbetters, McDaniels, Green. The Motes lines were Quakers from Ohio to South Carolina; Goggans, Collier. Surnames associated with my Choctaw/Brown ancestors based on dna matches with incomplete genealogical data; Frazier, Durant, Kaniatobe, LeFlore, Wilson, Jones, Pitchlynn, York, Reed, Hudson, Byington. I suspect a connection with Moshulatubbe’s full blood daughters, names unknown. They were not very religious but associated with Cyrus Byington the preacher who Henry Byington Choctaw was named after. I believe his name was Henry Graves before changing it to Byington. My gggrandfather Moses Brown’s father is noted on his Dawes card as John Brown. John Brown apparently died before 1896 and buried in an unmarked grave in an unknown field somewhere in Indian Territory. Accordingly he was from Jack’s Fork before the counties were renamed.

        Reply
        • Uchee descendants will show up with Sami (Lapp), Scandinavian, Finish, Basque or Cier-reigh Irish (Black Irish) DNA and often Panoan from South America . . . yet have no known Scandinavian or Basque ancestors. I am not a genealogist, but there are readers of POOF, who are.

          Reply
  6. iwg42@hotmail.com'

    Hey Richard,
    Another piece of the DNA puzzle from the Tanio
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/02/natives-of-the-caribbean-wiped-out-during-colonization-left-dna-behind/?comments=1
    If more scientist keep looking at the DNA of Native Americans maybe they will finally come up with markers to help ID more migration routes to North America. Maybe they need to go to the SE coastal plain and Florida and take DNA samples from people there.
    Thanks and keep up the good work!

    Reply
  7. janymoo@fidnet.com'

    It is unbelievable how much work you have done. You have enlightened us all. Bravo on your new venture.

    Reply

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