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Thoughts on the peopling of the Americas, while washing paint brushes, baking a pizza and chatting with Ric Edwards

Thoughts on the peopling of the Americas, while washing paint brushes, baking a pizza and chatting with Ric Edwards


Geneticists are incessantly changing the facts. Anthropologists remain obsessed with creating simplistic models of the past.

Ric Edwards called early Sunday evening, while I was washing paint brushes and baking a pizza, bought at Dollar General.  Fortunately, the fixer upper cottage I am in now, has multiple, working telephone receptacles (unlike the rat-infested cabin, that I formerly lived in.)   The rat hovel had one working telephone at the extreme end of the structure.  I was able to multi-task, while Ric updated me with the latest set of “genetic facts” about indigenous Americans.

For those of you, who don’t know him, Ric played a major role in the formation of the People of One Fire and even came up with its name.  He and his wife live in the mountains of Texas.  He devotes most of his research nowadays to genetics. I don’t, so rely on him to tell the current version of truth on that particular date. His Creek heritage can be traced to the Lower Chattahoochee River Basin, but all those towns moved there in the early 1700s from locations to the east. Some of his ancestral families were definitely Uchee from the Lower Savannah River Basin.

When Ric and I first made contact around 14 years ago, he immediately discussed his theory that several indigenous ethnic groups reached the Americas by going directly from Scandinavia and Russia to Canada.  The Algonquians, Uchee, Arawaks and Panonans have distinctly different blood types and DNA profiles that indigenous groups in the western half of North America, plus the western and southern parts of South America. Look at the latest satellite imagery from ERSI or Google Earth.  The North Atlantic is dotted with submerged islands that would have been above the surface of the water during the last Ice Age. Ric and Dr. Gordon Freeman of the University of Alberta believe that the same people once lived on both sides of the North Atlantic.  Indeed, the oldest stonehenges are in Canada.  The oldest Canadian stone circles predate the oldest Stonehenge in the British Isles (located in Wales) by 500 years. No one has attempted to date the stone circles in northern Georgia.

Ric believed that the ancestors of the Muskogeans came to the Americas very early and by water along the edge of the Pacific Ocean.  He believed that Proto-Polynesians and Melanesian arrived in the Americas very early.  Guess what?  In recent years, the oldest skeletons in Mexico are Southeast Asian or Proto-Polynesian.

At the time, most of my knowledge base was focused on Mesoamerica, so I just listened and gave his theories serious consideration.  After all, it only took the Inuit three centuries to populate the entire Arctic region from Alaska to Greenland.  There is no reason to doubt that humans could have traversed the same region in earlier times.   There is another bit of evidence.  Most indigenous Americans have O+ blood.  Only in the Algonquian regions does one see A and B blood types among “full blood” Natives.

The greatest concentration of R haplotype is among the Algonquians and Atlantic Coast of Europe.

My research during the past two years into the petroglyphs in northern Georgia and shared words among indigenous peoples in the North Atlantic Region is backing up Ric’s theories 100%.  Most of the petroglyphs in northern Georgia are identical  to those In either Ireland-Scotland or southern Scandinavian . . . depending on the river valley in Georgia.   Irish Gaelic, Algonquian, Shawnee, Cherokee and Muskoge-Creek use the same word for “people or tribe” . . .  gi ~ ki.  

The archaic word for “living place” . . . bo . . . can be found in Anglish, Jutish, Swedish, Danish, Panoan (Peru) and Apalache-Creek.  The root words of the Old English word borough . . . bo and reigh . . . can be found any many Native American tribal and geographical names in the Carolinas and Georgia.   Keep in mind that the Angles and Jutes originated from the same region where there is a concentration of burial mounds and Bronze Age petroglyphs in Sweden.

Ric’s latest and most precise analysis of his family’s genetics revealed that he had about 30% Finno-Ugric (Sami and Finnish) DNA test markers.  He also had significant southwest Asian DNA test markers  That is a big change from past tests, reflecting the continually changing understanding of human genetics. Dr. Ray Burden is also finding a significant level Finno-Ugric in his family, which is of mixed Uchee-Creek descent.

Of course, all commercial labs do not consider those markers to be indicative of indigenous American ancestry, but Ric cannot find any Sami, Finnish or Swedish ancestors from the Colonial Period, so I strongly suspect that they came from his Uchee ancestors.  They really should be considered “typical Native American” DNA markers in the Southeast.  But alas, there are no DNA test markers for the Uchee, Miccosukee and Creeks.

Meanwhile, geneticists have found absolute proof that the aboriginal peoples of the southern tip of South America and a region in the hear of Amazonia were Australoids. They either sailed along the rim of the Pacific to get there or else directly from Africa.

Geneticists have recently discovered that the aboriginal peoples of Northwest Europe during the Paleolithic and Neolithic Periods had dark hair and dark complexions.  They were not terribly different in appearance from modern “full-blood” Native Americans. 

It’s the same ole, same old thing with anthropology.  The profession in the United States is divided up into cliques, each with its own simplistic explanation for the peopling of America.  The groups are primarily interested in “their side winning” . . . not getting at the truth.  I imagine that they call each other “ignorant peons” like the Georgia archaeologists labeled me in 2012.  LOL

Look at the genetic and blood type maps of indigenous peoples the Americas.  They provide a very complex picture of the New World’s past, not a snapshot of a single wave of people coming during a short period over a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska.   As we said earlier, small extended family bands of pioneers could have both paddled and hiked from the Old World to the New World from many locations and at many time periods.  The Inuit were certainly not the “Lone Rangers” in this endeavor.  Once in the Americas, these small bands mingled and had babies, who ultimately evolved into distinct indigenous groups.

Long, long ago in a land far away . . . Mexican anthropologists told me that they thought Gringo anthropologists had grossly underestimated the length of time that mankind had been in the Americas.  At the time, the official date was 10,000 BC.  The Mexican scholars also were convinced that the earliest settlers in their region were Proto-Polynesians.   They knew for a fact that the indigenous people of Baja California were Polynesians.   European plagues had wiped out most of these people by the early 1800s.

When I got back to the States and started giving color slide lectures,  the Gringo archaeologists laughed at me when I related what the Mexican archaeologists had told me.  For the next four decades, the profession bitterly opposed the suggestion that Polynesians had arrived in North America prior to the “Clovis People” – even though no Clovis points have ever been found in Alaska or Siberia. Their greatest concentration is in the Southeastern United States.

Guess what?  Last night I watched a National Geo special on the discovery of a very old skeleton on Catalina Island, California.  She was a Polynesian, whose bones were unearthed in the 1950s, but not studied until 1999!  They were 13,000 years old.  This information was suppressed by the “Clovis People” in the profession until 2015, when more Polynesian skeletons were found in Channel Islands.   Then in 2016, a chain of Polynesian fishing villages was discovered along the coast of southern California – containing Polynesian style artifacts. California archaeologists have now decided that most of the “American Indians” from Los Angeles southward to the Mexican border, were actually Polynesians. There is still no admission that the Baja California natives were Polynesians.

Back in 2005, I took a now-primitive DNA test.  It said that I was about 3/4th Nordic (Scandinavian-Finnish), Scottish and Irish.  The remainder was Asiatic, including Maya and Polynesian.  Polynesian?   I thought it was a fluke.  Then last year, I figured out that the Wasali/Wassaw People of Wassaw Sound, GA and the Savannah River Basin were probably Polynesians.  Their capital was in present day Elbert County, GA, where my mother grew up.  They were also in South Carolina as indicated by the English place name, Waxhaw and the Spanish ethnic name, Guasule.  Vasa is a Maori and little used Hawaiian word for ocean water.


Cousin Ray recently had some much more sophisticated testing done on his family.  That test determined that the Polynesian component was most similar to the Maori in New Zealand.   Maori?   Now you figure that one out.

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Richard Thornton is a professional architect, city planner, author and museum exhibit designer-builder. He is today considered one of the nation’s leading experts on the Southeastern Indians. However, that was not always the case. While at Georgia Tech Richard was the first winner of the Barrett Fellowship, which enabled him to study Mesoamerican architecture and culture in Mexico under the auspices of the Institutio Nacional de Antropoligia e Historia. Dr. Roman Piňa-Chan, the famous archaeologist and director of the Museo Nacional de Antropologia, was his fellowship coordinator. For decades afterward, he lectured at universities and professional societies around the Southeast on Mesoamerican architecture, while knowing very little about his own Creek heritage. Then he was hired to carry out projects for the Muscogee-Creek Nation in Oklahoma. The rest is history. Richard is the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the KVWETV (Coweta) Creek Tribe and a member of the Perdido Bay Creek Tribe. In 2009 he was the architect for Oklahoma’s Trail of Tears Memorial at Council Oak Park in Tulsa. He is the president of the Apalache Foundation, which is sponsoring research into the advanced indigenous societies of the Lower Southeast.



    Indeed, it’s becoming more and more apparent that many distinct peoples came to the Americas from many parts of the world. Artifacts, such as those found along the coastal areas of southern and Baja California, make it irrefutable. In addition, there are, as you point out, surviving vestiges of ancient languages, as well as distinct styles of dress and decoration, building techniques, diet and particular foods, etc, etc.
    Last night, I happened upon this documentary on the Hitties. I think you, and POOF readers in general, will find some fascinating links to the ancient Near East. I’m no expert on DNA or genetics, but they would likely fit within that R1a/M17 group. You may also find it particularly interesting that the same suffix for people, tribe, or race exists among certain tribes, here. Look, also, at the stone block architecture. Oh, by the way… Apples apparently originated in the area where the Hitties came from. Curiouser and curiouser.

    • I look forward to watching the documentary tonight at supper. Thank you!


    I enjoyed watching this Very interesting video. I also was reading an older article from Science magazine by Balter “ Ancient DNA Links Native Americans with Europe”. There were several other articles mentioned in this one. Also one in Nature.2014 Jan2;505(7481):87-91 that I found interesting. I am a B blood type as well as my half sister and my children and have been looking into that closer. Being adopted I search in many areas of interest. My sister and I only know our mother’s side since she was not placed for adoption and lived with our mother we can trace that side of the family tree. She had been told there was Native American relatives back in our line. Our family has been in upper East TN/ SW VA / W NC area since 1700’s. Our DNA has us with English, Irish/Scottish, Eastern European, Swedish and Finnish. Along with several smaller amounts from Pacific areas and the Middle East. We are searching and studying as we learn more.


    There needs to be DNA testing on bones the TVA X-Files Have had under wraps for all these years to aid in the understanding of the people that lived in these Southern states. Much is tucked away under lock and key. I did a college history paper on “ The TVA X-Files” a few years ago. I was very unhappy by what I learned as was my college professor.

    • Lou, You are absolutely right. They were supposed to bury those bones 28 years ago and didn’t.


    Richard T., Yet another great post. I’ve been putting some research data together regarding the native American DNA and the peopling of the Americas. Perhaps you and your cousin can take a look at it and give your honest opinion.

    In short, There are two main Y-DNA (male) haplogroups: R and Q (R-M207 and Q-M242) who are the ancestors of the Y-DNA found in the Americas. Furthermore there are five main mtDNA (female) haplogroups are A, B, C, D and X in the Americas.
    Y-DNA Q and mtDNA A, B, C and D entered the Americas from the west meaning from northeast Asia / east-Siberia while Y-DNA R and mtDNA X entered the Americas from the east meaning from (mainly) Europe; mtDNA X2a in the Americas is believed to be an early descendant of the basal Haplogroup X mtDNA meaning all other X mtDNA subclades in Middle East and Europe developed separatly and aren’t directly related to X2a.
    In case of the X2a mtDNA there is a question on how they ;females carrying X mtDNA; ended up in the Americas. Were they wives ;or maybe taken against their will by; of males carrying R Y-DNA on their voyages towards/into the Americas?
    I have tried to put the important relevant information on the Y-DNA migration into the Americas in chronological order so you and POOF members/readers are able to follow with less chance (no chance) to get confused.

    Yes; It will be a page filling comment; it is what it is; it’s the only way to keep consistent and not send POOF members/readers on a wild goose chase searching for information.

    Sources/links and additional info are added below (last part) of this comment.

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup K2 / K-M526 Y-DNA):
    “The only living males reported as carrying the basal paragroup K2* (K-M526) are indigenous Australian males. Up to 27% of them may carry K2* and approximately 29% of Aboriginal Australian males belong to subclades of K2b1.”

    “At the level of highly-derived subclades, K2 is almost universal in some modern Eurasian and Native American populations. However, the only living males reported to carry the basal paragroup K2* are native Australians.”

    “Haplogroup NO* (descendant of K2a) includes most males among Southeast Asian, East Asian, and Finno-Ugric populations. The descendants of K2b include the major haplogroups M; S, P, Q, and R.”

    “A rapid diversification within and from K2 (M526), most likely in Southeast Asia, is suggested by estimates of the point in time that K2 branched off from K* (M9). Likewise the branching from K2 of K2b (P331) and Haplogroup P (K2b2 P295) from K2b, as well as Haplogroups Q and R from P (K2b2), and their subsequent expansions westward in Europe, and eastward into the Americas.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup K2b / P331 Y-DNA):
    “The population geneticist Tatiana Karafet and other researchers (2014) point out that K2b1, its subclades and P* are virtually restricted geographically to South East Asia and Oceania.”

    “According to Karafet et al., the estimated dates for the branching of K, K2, K2b and P point to a “rapid diversification” within K2 “that likely occurred in Southeast Asia”, with subsequent “westward expansions” of P*, P1, Q and R.”

    “Some Negrito populations of South-East Asia carry very high levels of K2b at the subclade level. It is carried, for instance, by more than 83% of males among the Aeta (or Agta) people of the Philippines, in the form of K2b1 (60%), P* (P-P295*, a.k.a. K2b2*) and P2 (P-B253; K2b2b).”

    “K2b1 is found in 83% of males of Papua New Guinea, and up to 60% in the Aeta people of the Philippines. It is also found among other Melanesian populations, as well as indigenous Australians, and at lower levels amongst Polynesians.”

    “Apart from the basal paragroup P* (K2b2), it has only one subclade: P1 (M45), also known as K2b2a – which is also the parent of the major haplogroups Q (K2b2a1) and R (K2b2a2).”

    “P (K2b2) descendant haplogroups Q (K2b2a1) and R (K2b2a2) is widely distributed among males of Native American, Central Asian, South Asian and European ancestry.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup P / P-P295 / K2b2):
    “Haplogroup P also known as P-P295 and K2b2 is a Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup in human genetics. P-P295 is a branch of K2b (previously Haplogroup MPS; P331), which is a branch of Haplogroup K2 (K-M526).”

    “The only primary branches (clades) of P-P295 are P1 (P-M45) and P2 (P-B253). P1 is, in turn, the parent node of Haplogroup Q (Q-M242) and Haplogroup R (R-M207).”

    “Basal P* is found at its highest rate among members of the Aeta (or Agta), a people indigenous to Luzon, in The Philippines. Luzon is also the only location where P*, P1* and rare P2 are now found together, along with significant levels of K2b1. Even though P1* is now more common among individuals in Eastern Siberia and Central Asia, the above distributions tend to suggest that P* (P295) emerged in South East Asia.”

    “The major subclades Haplogroups Q and R now include most males among Europeans, Native Americans, South Asians and Central Asians.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup P1 / P-M45 / K2b2a):
    “The only primary subclades of P1 are Haplogroup Q (Q-M242) and Haplogroup R (R-M207). These haplogroups now comprise most of the male lineages among Native Americans, Europeans, Central Asia and South Asia, among other parts of the world.”

    “P1 (M45) likely originated in East Asia or Southeast Asia, even though basal P1* (P1xQ,R) is now most common among individuals in Eastern Siberia and Central Asia. Both P* and its precursor, K2b, reach their highest rates among members of the Aeta (or Agta) people of Luzon in the Philippines, and; Luzon is also the only location where P*, P1 and haplogroup P2 (P-B253; K2b2b), the only other primary subclade of P*, have been found together.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Aeta People):
    “The Aeta (Ayta / / ), or Agta, are an indigenous people who live in scattered, isolated mountainous parts of the island of Luzon, the Philippines.”

    “These people are considered to be Negritos, whose skin ranges from dark to very dark brown, and possessing features such as a small stature and frame; hair of a curly to kinky texture and a higher frequency of naturally lighter colour (blondism) relative to the general population, small nose, and dark brown eyes. They are thought to be among the earliest inhabitants of the Philippines, preceding the Austronesian migrations.”

    “The Aeta were included in the group of people named “Negrito” during the Spanish Era. Various Aeta groups in northern Luzon are named Pugut or Pugot, an Ilocano term that also means “goblin” or “forest spirit”, and is the colloquial term for people with darker complexions.”

    “The Aeta people in the Philippines are Australo-Melanesians, which includes other groups such as Aborigines in Australia; Papuans; and the Melanesians of the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Fiji, and the French overseas special collectivity of New Caledonia.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup R / R-M207):
    “Haplogroup P1 (P-M45), the immediate ancestor of Haplogroup R, likely emerged in Southeast Asia.”

    “Haplogroup R* Y-DNA (xR1,R2) was found in 24,000-year-old remains from Mal’ta in Siberia near Lake Baikal.”

    “Some authorities have also suggested, more controversially, that R-M207 has long been present among Native Americans in North America – a theory that has not yet been widely accepted.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup R1a / R-M420):
    “Tatiana et al. (2014) “rapid diversification process of K-M526 likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q.”

    “According to Underhill (2014), the downstream R1a-M417 subclade diversified into Z282 and Z93 circa 5,800 years ago.”

    “Even though R1a occurs as the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroup among populations speaking a wide variety of languages such as Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Dravidian, Turkic and Finno-Ugric, the question of the origins of R1a1a is relevant to the ongoing debate concerning the urheimat of the Proto-Indo-European people, and may also be relevant to the origins of the Indus Valley Civilisation.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup R1b / R-M343):
    “Haplogroup R1b (R-M343), also known as Hg1 and Eu18”

    “It is the most frequently occurring paternal lineage in Western Europe, as well as some parts of Russia (e.g. the Bashkir minority) and Central Africa (e.g. Chad and Cameroon).”

    “The age of R1* was estimated by Tatiana Karafet et al. (2008) at between 12,500 and 25,700 BP, and most probably occurred about 18,500 years ago. Since the earliest known example has been dated at circa 14,000 BP, and belongs to R1b1a (R-L754), R1b must have arisen relatively soon after the emergence of R1*.”

    “Olalde et al. (2017) trace the spread of haplogroup R1b in western Europe, particularly Britain, to the spread of the Beaker culture nearly 5,000 years BP during the early Bronze Age. In the 2016 Nature article “The genetic history of Ice Age Europe”, an individual known as Villabruna 1 from an Epigravettian cultural context in Italy is mentioned, who lived circa 14,000 BP and reportedly belonged to Y-DNA group R1b1.”

    “One of the highest levels of R1b is found among the Basques, who speak a non-Indo-European language isolate.”

    “The broader haplogroup R (M207) is a primary subclade of haplogroup P1 (M45) itself a primary branch of P (P295), which is also known as haplogroup K2b2. R-M207 is therefore a secondary branch of K2b (P331), and a direct descendant of K2 (M526).”

    “There was “an initial rapid diversification” of K-M526, according to Karafet et al. (2014), which “likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q”. The only living males reported to carry the basal paragroup K2* are indigenous Australians.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup R-M269 / R1b1a1a2 Y-DNA):
    “Haplogroup R-M269, also known as R1b1a1a2, is a sub-clade of human Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b. It is of particular interest for the genetic history of Western Europe.”

    “R-M269 had formerly been dated to the Upper Paleolithic, but by about 2010 it had become clear that it arose near the beginning of the Neolithic Revolution, about 10,000 years ago.”

    “No clear consensus has been achieved as to whether it arose within Europe or in Western Asia. Balaresque et al.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Haplogroup Q-M242 Y-DNA):
    “Q-M242 is the predominant Y-DNA haplogroup among Native Americans and several peoples of Central Asia and Northern Siberia. It is also the predominant Y-DNA of the Akha tribe in northern Thailand and the Dayak people of Indonesia.”

    “Haplogroup Q-M242 is one of the two branches of P1-M45 also known as K2b2a (The other is R-M207).”

    “Karafet et al. (2014), stated: “rapid diversification process of K-M526 likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Chuvash People):
    “There are rival schools of thought on the origin of the Chuvash people. One is that they originated from a mixing between the Turkic Sabir tribes of Volga Bulgaria and also according to some researches with local Finno-Ugric populations.”

    “Physical anthropologists using the racial frameworks of the early 20th Century saw the Chuvash as a mixed Finno-Ugric and Turkic people.”

    “Subclades of Y-DNA haplogroups R1 and N are most common among the Chuvash.”

    “Haplogroups Q and C are rare among Chuvashes. Chuvash carriers of Haplogroup R1a (19% in hundreds of samples) are Balto-Slavic Z282 subclade.”

    “According to autosomal analyses: “Present-day Chuvash speak an Altaic-Turkic language and are genetically related to Caucasians (Georgians), Mediterraneans, and Middle Easterners, and not only to Central or Northern Europeans; Chuvash contain little indications of Central Asian-Altaic gene flow. Thus, present-day Chuvash who speak an Altaic-Turkic language are probably more closely related to ancient Mesopotamian-Hittites and northern European populations than to central Asia-Altaic people.”

    Timeline Y-DNA relation K2 – R-M269:
    47,000-55,000 years ago – Haplogroup K2 (K-M526) came into existence
    40,000-50,000 years ago – Haplogroup K2b (P331) came into existence
    about -35,000 years ago – Haplogroup P (P-P295 / K2b2) came into existence
    24,500-31,700 years ago – Haplogroup Q (Q-M242) came into existence
    about -27,000 Years ago – Haplogroup R (R-M207) came into existence
    22,000-25,000 years ago – Haplogroup R1a (R-M420) came into existence
    about -18,500 years ago – Haplogroup R1b (R-M343) came into existence
    about -10,000 years ago – Haplogroup R1b1a1a2 (R-M269) came into existence

    Hypothetical Migration route into the Americas based on Y-DNA:
    K; K2; K2b Australo-Melanesian Sahul Continent; – P; P1 Aeta Negrito, Timor (and possibly Papua New Guinea) Island Southeast Asia; – Q; R mainland (Southeast-)Asia, Q migrating towards north; northeast Asia via Bering Strait landbridge (and probable coastal route) into the Americas; R migrating westwards through south Asia, into central Asia (also Siberia?) and Asia minor through mainland Europe crossing the Atlantic Ocean into the Americas.

    When you follow the quotes and timeline you will see that Haplogroup K2 Y-DNA is the ancient ancestor of Haplogroup R1b1a1a2 Y-DNA also known as R-M269.
    This ancient ancestor must have looked similar if not identical to modern day Australo-Melanesians (Australian Aboriginals, Papuans and Island Southeast Asian Negritos).
    Furthermore you can see a Haplogroup K2b (P331) migration from the (Island-)Southeast Asian (and Oceanic?) region towards the west ;or east to west migration; gradually evolving into Haplogroup P (K2b2) further evolving into Haplogroup P1 (k2b2a also known as P-M45) the direct ancestor of subclades including Haplogroup Q (Q-M242) and Haplogroup R (R-M207).
    Looking at Y-DNA and mtDNA distribution maps there clearly seems to have been at least to migration waves into the Americas; one via the Beringa strait landbridge (also a probable coastal route) northwest America and the other via the Atlantic Ocean ;perhaps via British/Irish isles, Iceland and Greenland into northeast America.

    I have included the Chuvash people ;who live in an area stretching from the Volga region to Siberia; in this comment to show that facial features of some Chuvash people (do not confuse with Chumash from the Channel Islands off the coast of California) are similar to Australo-Melanesian people. Below this comment there is link to a picture of three Chuvash men standing side by side with the one in the middle having (psuedo-?) Australo-Melanesian facial features while the two men besides him have the more common Asian facial features.
    This shouldn’t be surprising since the Chuvash people carry Haplogroup R1a Y-DNA which is ;albeit (although) distantly; linked to the ancient Haplogroup K (K2) Y-DNA which at present is only found in living males in Australia, Papua and Melanesia (islands surrounding Australia and Papua New Guinea including some parts of the Philippines in the Aeta Negrito population).
    While Haplogroup R Y-DNA entered the Americas via (north-)west Europe, Haplogroup Q Y-DNA entered the Americas either via the hypotized Beringa landbridge, a Pacific coastal route or both. In a recent DNA study not too long ago (2015) researchers found an actual DNA link between some Aleutian islanders, Australo-Melanesians, Negritos and a DNA link between Australo-Melanesians, Negritos and some Amazonian tribes.
    Also a recent DNA study on the Tianyuan Man (skeletal remains in China) shows a genetic link to both Australo-Melanesians and the same Amazonian tribes where Australo-Melanesian and Negrito DNA was found. Indirectly it could proof that Haplogroup Q Y-DNA could somehow also be connected to the (psuedo-)Australo-Melanesian appearance of some native Americans since Haplogroup Q along with Haplogroup R is related (via Haplogroup P / P1) to Haplogroup K / K2 Y-DNA.
    In other words individuals from people of both Haplogroup Q and R Y-DNA could have (psuedo-)Australo-Melanesian features and perhaps hypothetically still have ;low-frequency; Australo-Melanesian (nulcear-?)DNA.

    Australian Aboriginals have been isolated from other Y-DNA and mtDNA for at least 40,000 years if not more ;little (perhaps only from related people via Papua) to No DNA migration towards/into Australia during that time period; meaning Y-DNA and mtDNA like Haplogroup Q and R Y-DNA and Haplogroup M1 mtDNA are decendants from an out migration from the Sahul Continent into Island Southeast Asia and into mainland Island Southeast Asia etc. of Australian Aboriginal Haplogroup K2 Y-DNA and Haplogroup M mtDNA.

    Remains of an ancient 35,000 year old European from Goyet Caves in Belgium (Western Europe – Low Lands) shares DNA with Tianyuan Man which in turn could be indirect proof of dark skinned people living on the European mainland since Tianyuan Man inherited DNA from Papuans and Aboriginal Australians (Australo-Melanesians).

    Haplogroup NO* (descendant of K2a) includes most males among Southeast Asian, East Asian, and Finno-Ugric populations; meaning there could also be (psuedo-)Australo-Melanesian features and low-frequency Australo-Melanesian DNA in Finno-Ugric populations. The Chuvash people are also believed by researchers to be linked to Finno-Ugric populations.


    Haplogroup Y-DNA – (Haplogroup K2 / K-M526 Y-DNA) – (Haplogroup K2b / P331 Y-DNA) – (Haplogroup P / P-P295 / K2b2) – (Haplogroup P1 / P-M45 / K2b2a) – (Haplogroup R / R-M207 Y-DNA) – (Map Lake Baikal, Siberia) – (Haplogroup R1a / R-M420 Y-DNA) – (Distribution Map R1a Y-DNA) – (Haplogroup R1b / R-M343 Y-DNA) – (Distribution Map R1b Y-DNA) – (Haplogroup R-M269 / R1b1a1a2 Y-DNA) – (Distribution Map R-M269) – (Haplogroup Q / Q-M242 Y-DNA) – (Distribution Map Q Y-DNA)

    Haplogroup mtDNA – (Haplogroup X mtDNA) – (Distribution Map X mtDNA)

    Aeta people – (Aeta People) – (Aeta Girl – 1901) – (Aeta boy – 2015)

    Chuvash people – (Chuvash Men – early 20th century) – (Chuvash woman – traditional attire mid to late 19th century) – (Chuvashia – Chuvash Republic/Nation)

    Tianyuan Man – (Tianyuan Man)

    Northern Europe: – (Language Map Northern Europe – light blue/North Germanic; dark blue/Finnic; green/Baltic)

    • Your comments dwarfed my post both in intellect and in quantity! Thank I am going to make you the new editor, so I will have more time for house fixing-upping. LOL


        LOL being the new editor would be too much. I’m only connecting the dots with help of the information that you provide in your POOF posts.
        You are far more knowledgeable when it comes to native Americans and native American cultures.

        Hope you’re making a lot of progress fixing up your house.

    • Here@main.Com'

      The Polynesians picked up the Austronesian haplotype much more recently than we are talking here. Thousands of years off. The Southeast Asian boat people were coastal for thousands of years before becoming more seafaring.


    Richard T., Can you take a look at the following and give your opinion?

    I came across some interesting word similarities in Oceanic, Island Southeast Asian, Northwest European, Eurasian and Northeast American languages.
    The words in question are “pugut” or “Pugot” and “Kakamora” refering to goblins and nature spirits.

    These words can be an important link between seemingly unrelated people. Although there is always the chance resemblance and coincidence factor, in my opinion stories about goblins and nature spirits are rooted in culture and handed down from generation to generation which would make a chance resemblance and coincidence less probable.

    Pugut / Pugot:
    Quotes (from wikipedia Aeta people):
    “These people are considered to be Negritos, whose skin ranges from dark to very dark brown, and possessing features such as a small stature and frame; hair of a curly to kinky texture and a higher frequency of naturally lighter colour (blondism) relative to the general population, small nose, and dark brown eyes. They are thought to be among the earliest inhabitants of the Philippines, preceding the Austronesian migrations.”

    “The Aeta were included in the group of people named “Negrito” during the Spanish Era. Various Aeta groups in northern Luzon are named Pugut or Pugot, an Ilocano term that also means “goblin” or “forest spirit”, and is the colloquial term for people with darker complexions.”

    “The Aeta people in the Philippines are Australo-Melanesians, which includes other groups such as Aborigines in Australia; Papuans; and the Melanesians of the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Fiji, and the French overseas special collectivity of New Caledonia.”

    “According to Spanish observers like Miguel López de Legazpi, Negritos possessed iron tools and weapons. Their speed and accuracy with a bow and arrow were proverbial and they were fearsome warriors.”

    Puck, Púca, Bucca:
    Quotes (from wikipedia Puck (folklore):
    “In English folklore, Puck, sometimes known as Robin Goodfellow, is a domestic and nature sprite, demon, or fairy.”

    “The etymology of puck is uncertain. The modern English word is attested already in Old English as puca (with a diminutive form pucel). Similar words are attested later in Old Norse (púki, with related forms including Old Swedish puke, Icelandic púki, and Frisian puk) but also in the Celtic languages (Welsh pwca, Cornish bucca and Irish púca).”

    “The Oxford English Dictionary favoured a Scandinavian origin, but the most recent scholarly study argues for an Irish origin, on the basis that the word is widely distributed in Irish place-names, whereas puck-place-names in English are rare and late in the areas showing Old Norse influence, and seem rather to radiate outwards from the south-west of England, which arguably had Irish influence during the early medieval period.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Púca):
    “The púca (Irish for spirit/ghost), pooka, phouka, phooka, phooca, puca or púka is primarily a creature of Celtic folklore.”

    “The púca has counterparts throughout the Celtic cultures of Northwest Europe. For instance, in Welsh mythology it is named the pwca and in Cornish the Bucca. In the Channel Islands, the pouque were said to be fairies who lived near ancient stones; in Channel Island French a cromlech is referred to as a pouquelée or pouquelay(e); poulpiquet and polpegan are corresponding terms in Brittany.”

    “The origin of the name may have come from the Old Norse term pook or puki, which refers to a “nature spirit”. Usage of the term in Ireland, however, may predate the arrival of Norse settlers. In Germanic languages, such as Frisian or English, this became pucel, pook or puck.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Bucca (mythological creature):
    “Bucca is a male sea-spirit in Cornish folklore – a merman- that inhabited mines and coastal communities as a hobgoblin during storms. The mythological creature is a type of water spirit likely related to the Púca from Irish and Welsh folklore and the female mari-morgans – a type of mermaid from Welsh and Breton mythology.”

    “In 1890, the Cornish folklorist William Bottrell stated that: It is uncertain whether Bucka can be regarded as one of the fairy tribe; old people, within my remembrance, spoke of a Bucka Gwidden and a Bucka Dhu – by the former they meant good spirit, and by the latter an evil one, now known as Bucka boo.”

    Quotes (from wikipedia Pukwudgie):
    “A Pukwudgie, also spelled Puk-Wudjie (another spelling, Puck-wudj-ininee, is translated by Henry Schoolcraft as “little wild man of the woods that vanishes”), is a creature found in Delaware and Wampanoag folklore, sometimes said to be 2-to-3-foot-tall (61 to 91 cm).”

    “According to legend, Pukwudgies’ can appear and disappear at will, lure people to their deaths, use magic, launch poison arrows, and create fire.”

    “Native Americans believed that Pukwudgies were once friendly to humans, but then turned against them, and are best left alone. According to lore, a person who annoyed a Pukwudgie would be subject to nasty tricks by it, or subject to being followed by the Pukwudgie, who would cause trouble for them. They are known to kidnap people, push them off cliffs, attack their victims with short knives and spears, and to use sand to blind their victims.”

    Word comparison “Pugut”/”Pugot” (1):
    Philippines = Pugut / Pugot = goblin; forest spirit
    Northeast America = Pukwudgie = magical little people; gnomes; fairies
    Ireland = Púca = spirit/ghost
    Soutwest England= Bucka Gwidden = sea-spirit
    England = Puck = nature sprite; fairy
    Old Norse = Pook / Puki = nature spirit

    Pugut, Pukwudgie and Bucka Gwidden show most similarities.

    Word comparison “Pugut”/”Pugot” (2):
    Philippines = Pug- – –ut —
    Northeast America = Puk- – -wud gie
    Soutwest England= Buck a gwid den

    Some alternative spellings of Pukwudgie: Bagwajiwinini, Pukwudjininee, Bogwejimen.
    Depending on the tribe (Ojibwe, Algonquin, Abenaki, Wampanoag, Mohican) the pronunciation of Pukwudgie is: bug-wuh-jih-wih-nih-nee, bug-wuh-jih-nih-nee, or boog-wuh-jee-mun.


    Quotes (from Solomon encyclopedia):
    “Kakamora are the legendry midget humans of Makira, Guadalcanal and Malaita, said to be about one-half to one metre in height with long black hair and long fingernails.”

    “Kakamora have a mischievous reputation and are said to become aggressive when cornered.”

    “They are something like fairies and goblins in European mythology. However, there are also very short people in the Solomons such as those seen by District Officer Dick Horton (q.v.) in the 1930s at Veramakuru village on Guadalcanal.”


    Quotes (from wikipedia Kikimora):
    “Kikimora (Russian: кики́мора, IPA: [kʲɪˈkʲimərə]) is a legendary creature, a female house spirit in Slavic mythology.”

    “The word kikimora may have derived from Udmurt (Finn-Ugric) word kikka-murt, meaning scarecrow (literally bag-made person), although other etymological hypotheses also exist.”

    “In Polish folklore, mora are the souls of living people that leave the body during the night, and are seen as wisps of straw or hair or as moths. Accordingly, Polish mora, Czech můra denote both a kind of elf or spirit as well as a “sphinx moth” or “night butterfly”.”

    “In Croatian, mora refers to a “nightmare”. Mora or Mara is one of the spirits from ancient Slav mythology.”

    “In Romania they were known as Moroi”

    “There are two different kinds of Kikimoras. The one that comes from the forest is married to the Domovoi. The other one comes from the swamp (Russian: кики́мора боло́тная) and is married to Leshy.”

    Word comparison Kakamora:
    Solomon Islands = Kakamora = goblin; fairies
    Russia = Kikimora = house spirit
    Finn-Ugric = Kikka-murt = scarecrow (bag-made person)
    French = Cauchemare = nightmare

    Although the word similarity between Kakamora, Kikimora and Kikka-murt is strong it seems to be unrelated to eachother when you compare the meanings of Kakamora, Kikimora and Kikka-murt.
    Still, even with less convincing relatedness it is remarkable to find word similarities in Oceania, Island Southeast Asia, Northwest Europe, Eurasia and Northeast America.

    The fact that Y-DNA Haplogroup R is descendant ;via Haplogroup P (K2b2); from Haplogroup K2b which are found in populations in Island Southeast Asia and Oceania (Australia, Papua, Melanesia) makes one wonder if the words Pugut and Kakamora migrated westward along with the ancestors of Haplogroup R populations.

    Sources/Links: – (Aeta People) – (Puck folklore – English) – (Púca – Irish) – (Bucca – mythological creature – Cornish / Southwest England) – (Pukwudgie – Delaware and Wampanoag folklore) – (Pukwudgie – Ojibwe, Algonquin, Abenaki, Wampanoag, Mohican) – (Lenape – Delaware People) (Wampanoag) – (Goblin) – (Kakamora – Solomon Islands / Makira) – (Kakamora) – (Kikimora – Russia / Slavic)

    • I think you have hit onto something. It appears that there was a Pygmy People, who moved out of Africa and occupied much of the world before the Australoids. They might also be the source of the Cherokee tradition of “Little People”. Keep in mind that the Cherokees were living Quebec in 1645 according to French and Dutch sources. So they would have been in the region where the “Puca” were said to dwell.


        Richard T., Thank you for your reply.

        There are basically two types of Negrito / little people living in Mainland-/Island Southeast Asia and Oceania.
        One being the Aeta type of the Philippines who carries Y-DNA Halpogroup K2b the other being the Onge type of the Andaman islands carrying Y-DNA haplogroup D. These Negritos are distantly related at best.

        Than there is the little people of island Flores in Island Southeast Asia also refered to as “the hobbit”.
        Recently researchers tried to find a genetic link between “the hobbit” and modern pygmies living on Flores. According to the researchers there is no genetic link between modern day pygmies of Flores and the hobbit (Floresiensis).
        The short stature of these genetically unrelated people is believed to be a case of island dwarfism.
        It seems like the word Pugut, Púca etc. was applied to any little/short people with or without genetic links.

        Having said that, The book “The Lost History of the Little People” by Dr. Susan B. Martinez is about an ancient short statured people who lived around the world before so called modern humans.
        In that case, maybe the words Pugut, Púca etc. was originally meant to refer to those ancient little people and later applied to any modern/current ‘genetically unrelated’ little people / short statured people.

        Whatever the case may be, the words Pugut, Púca do seem to be related on at least a cultural level.


        Modern Flores Island pygmies show no genetic link to extinct ‘hobbits’ – August 2, 2018, Princeton University

        The Lost History of the Little People – by Dr. Susan B. Martinez


    Your explanation absolutely doesn’t fit the evidence. The shared AND the contrasting mtDNA and Y-DNA plus autosomal must be accounted for.

    My model (posted earlier) fits the evidence. Yours doesn’t. The SE Asian component AND the Ancient North Eurasian components exist in both the non-Algonquin and Algonquin groups in different ratios. (Ignoring the late comers). They had to mix before the non-Algonquin sea people took boats down the shore from the Bering Strait area. They did this to escape the hundreds of years of aggression and rape by the ANE/Algonquin society, who were then big game specialists. Big game specialists trammeled all other cultures until farming was invented, wherever they existed. So the non-Algonquins made a desperate journey into the unknown and settled everything below the ice. They had it to themselves until the ice corridor finally opened up and the Algonquins, who didn’t learn boats, came through. Then there was mixing again.

    The Polynesians showed up again, almost as distant a cousin as Northern Europeans (who have an ANE component that makes them tall like the northern Indian tribes), and did a tiny bit of sex and trade, but that’s waaaay later. No one had boats that could do anything but skirt shorelines back when the first Indians came down the coast.


    You guys are a decade or more behind the data.

    Amerindian= Ancient North Eurasian (closest relatives: mixed ethnic remnant group in Russia) + Ancient Seoutheast Asian (closest relatives: Taiwanese)

    Northern European: a little European Hunter Gatherer, a whole lot of Northern European Hunter Gatherer, a big dose of Ancient North Eurasian, and some Anatolian Farmer and Caucasus Hunter Gatherer.

    The more Nordic you go, the stronger the Ancient North Eurasian component gets. When you put in the Lapps/Saami , who intermarried quite a bit with later Siberian with an even larger ANE component, it gets even stronger.

    Your data just means they had almost no Creek samples to compare it to. I’m mostly Northern European, but I get waaaay too much Scandinavian in my data because I’m too Norman for a typical English-Isles person. Not Anglo enough. DNA isn’t wrong. It’s just is going off the data it has.


    “Geneticists have recently discovered that the aboriginal peoples of Northwest Europe during the Paleolithic and Neolithic Periods had dark hair and dark complexions. They were not terribly different in appearance from modern “full-blood” Native Americans. “

    This…hurts my brain. European Hunter Gatherers were no more closely related to Amerindians than Amerindians are to…anyone who isn’t subSaharan or Negrito. Seriously.

    European Hunter Gatherers were actually from southern/central Europe. A major depigmentation gene was carried at some level into Europe, but they lost it through a genetic bottleneck at the same time they got blue eyes. It survived in the Middle Easterners and in a small Northern European Hunter Gatherer population.

    The common ancestry between the Amerindians and the Europeans is the Ancient North Eurasian.

    Family tree goes like this:
    SubSaharan ur—>Khoisan / Pygmy / Yoruba

    Yoruba—> Yoruba / Everyone not subSaharan

    Not subSaharan—> have sex with lotsa other archaic humans while splitting —> Negrito/ Everyone else

    Everyone else—> Asians/Eurasians

    Eurasian —> Other Eurasian/Ancient North Eurasians

    Other Eurasian —> get major skin lighting mutation (But it’s rare) —>Middle Eastern Hunter Gathers of slightly different lineages/ European Hunter Gatherers ditto/Caucasus Hunter Gatherers

    BLAM!!! Ice age gets really bad!!!

    Asians push out many negritos and diversify into Proto-Tibetan, Proto-Han, Ancient Southeast Asian, etc.

    Ancient North Eurasians take over half the world. They meet the SE Asians in Siberia and have sex, then some get trapped in the Bering Strait. You know the rest.

    Middle Easterners have even more sex with Neanderthals and invent stuff.

    European Hunter Gatherers have a huge cultural flowering and then almost all die because the climate gets really cold. They get blue eyes but lose the light skin mutation in the south. In the north, they select for light skin and might already get red hair.

    Caucasus Hunter Gatherers—trapped!

    Thaw comes.

    The Northern Europeans have had enough sex with the southerners to get some blue and green eyes by now. Caucasus Hunter Gatherers come out meet some Anatolian farmers now living in the south with evern more light skin mutations and they, the Northern Europeans, and the ANEs all meet and have lots of sex. Oh, and the ANEs got a mutation for blind hair in the past few thousand years. This bunch ends up tall and blond (from ANEs), red headed and blue and green eyes (lfrom Europeans) and with super pale skin (from Anatolia and a little from Northern Europeans). We call them the Indo-Europeans.

    The Anatolian farmers go into Europe and kill most of the people in the south. Then they change their minds and some sex with them instead. But not much. Their genetic heritage won’t change much with the later Indo-European conquest. Their culture will.

    The Indo-Europeans learn farming and invent the cart and tame the horse. They’re the original horse nomads—the farming era’s answer to big game specialists.

    This is actually a clue to the “white Cherokee Nazis”, though. They claim the ANE portion is what makes them Aryan (the old name for indo-European). It would take a year to explain how crazy that is, but whatever…..

    • You are quoting the belief system of anthropology from about 12 years ago. All Indigenous Americans are not the same people. There are no DNA test markers for the Southeastern peoples. Algonquian test markers from Canada are being used to define Native Americans east of the Mississippi, when we are not all the same people. The Uchee have consistantly claimed that they came across the Atlantic and first settled in the Savannah Area. In Savannah harbor are a cluster of mounds and artificial harbors dating from 3545 BC to 1500 AD. Most are in the range of 2500 BC to 1200 BC. The Uchee stated that when they arrived there was no one living in the Lower Southeast, but they could see the shell rings and mounds built by an earlier people and Algonquians were living in the Upper South. Perhaps the strangest thing about all the current evidence is that the Gaelic Irish, Algonuians, Shawnee, Cherokee and Muskogee Creeks use the same suffix word for people or tribe . . . ge. Itstate Creeks, who were the majority in Georgia spoke many more Maya words and so used the Itza suffix for people or tribe.


    K’é is the Diné (Navajo) word for kinship, as well as the clan system. Their view of family is much more encompassing. Anyone related through the same clans is considered as closely related as immediate family. A cousin distantly related, or cousin of an in-law, is a close relative. So in that sense, k’é means family. So that looked very similar to me. Diné is an Athabaskan language. And of course words & concepts travelled the trade routes just as shells made it far inland – well, lol, still do through the pow wow circuit. But I thought it was notable. If you look up family in a Diné Bizaad dictionary it won’t say k’é, but if you Google “k’é Navajo,” all kinds of school programs, outreach for “unsheltered relatives,” (people = relatives, traditionally, spiritually), family centered & well-being results come up, along with events from music to art to chapter house information come up. Here’s one link that explains the clanship system, as an example. I have a Facebook page full of Native artists & activists. I see this word constantly, & it is ancient. The tribe arrived in this area some say, around 1250 CE, & of course no one agrees where from. The emergence story tells they originated here, then returned later. Huge info gap between. Other groups had lived here prior to 1250. I mean between the 4 mountains, in the 4 corners states, by, “here.” Ki is used by O’odhams (Pimas, Maricopas) at least on the Salt River & Gila River Reservations. It denotes home & family in various forms.
    I’m Virginia Algonquin (Pamunkey/Mattaponi/Rappahannock). Southeastern Algonquian. Dad knew very little bc of assimilation early on, for survival. Fed recognition has been recent. People kept a low profile when they could bc of slavery & bigotry, until relatively recently. Traditions were kept alive as lifeways. Few words or stories were taught us. Gencide lives on, culturally. A disconnect that’s slowly being mended. So thank you for the work that you do. Understanding one’s roots is so important. Kenah, wingapo. (Thank you, friend & ally). … I don’t check email. I’m on Facebook. The comment requires email to post, so…. (That’s probably to discourage uncouth behavior, tho, lol.)


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