Select Page

Who Bubba Mountain Lion thinks the Olmec heads represent

Who Bubba Mountain Lion thinks the Olmec heads represent

 

Propagandists only show you the massive basalt heads, but thousands of ceramic and stone statues have been found in “Olmec” sites, which portray a people with different features, typical of SE Asia or Polynesia. The 24+ basalt heads most closely resemble the people of the western edge of the Pacific Basin . . . who perhaps also colonized parts of Central America. The great heads may represent the heads of enemy kings in military victories by the Soque provinces. Note the captive above. Alternatively,  like the Soque in the Southern Highlands, the Olmec Civilization may have been multi-ethnic in which each ethnic group formed a caste with specific roles in their culture.   Whatever the case,  the feline lips on the large basalt heads and many statues are Southeast Asiatic traits, typical of Myramara, Thailand and Samoa that are still found in several indigenous tribes of Mexico and the United States.  My host, José Angel Soto, was from NW Mexico and yet had those same type lips.

 

Fact 1 – There are people in western Polynesia,  northwestern Mexico, southern Mexico, the Thlopthlokko Creek Tribal Town and the Snowbird Cherokees, who look EXACTLY like the “Olmec” heads.  The key physical feature are the “feline” lips like that of a jaguar.

Fact 2 – There are four ethnic groups in the world, who used ornate wooden paddles to both make tattoos and stamp pottery  . . .  the Lapita-Proto-Polynesian Culture (1600 BC – 500 BC) . . .The Pre-Moche peoples of northern and eastern Peru (500 BC -100 AD) and all Panoan peoples of Satipo Province Peru . . .  The ancestors of some branches of the Creek and Soque Indians in the Southeast.  Lapita stamped pottery was very similar to the Napier style stamped pottery of northern and central Georgia. (600 AD – 900 AD).

Fact 3 –  Panoan and Creek tattoos are very similar to Polynesian tatoos and virtually identical to Lapita tatoos.

Fact 4 – The last phase of Lapitaa pottery was not stamped, but rather consisted of extremely complex painted geometric motifs.  Purepecha from Michoacan State on the Pacific Coast of Mexico is virtually identical to the last stage of Lapita pottery.

Fact 5 – Creek and Uchee descendants in eastern Georgia and western South Carolina are showing up in DNA tests to have substantial levels of Polneisian DNA markers.

Fact 6 –  The Lapita men until recently wore mustaches and goatee beards like the Olmec figure in the middle above. 

Fact 7 –  Olmec sculptures portrayed individuals with several distinct physical features, suggesting that they were produced by a multi-ethnic society.

Typical Creek tattoo from eastern Georgia

The following Youtube video is from a very popular TV series in New Zealand, which focuses on the culture of the Polynesian  peoples.

 

 

The following two tabs change content below.
Richard Thornton is a professional architect, city planner, author and museum exhibit designer-builder. He is today considered one of the nation’s leading experts on the Southeastern Indians. However, that was not always the case. While at Georgia Tech Richard was the first winner of the Barrett Fellowship, which enabled him to study Mesoamerican architecture and culture in Mexico under the auspices of the Institutio Nacional de Antropoligia e Historia. Dr. Roman Piňa-Chan, the famous archaeologist and director of the Museo Nacional de Antropologia, was his fellowship coordinator. For decades afterward, he lectured at universities and professional societies around the Southeast on Mesoamerican architecture, while knowing very little about his own Creek heritage. Then he was hired to carry out projects for the Muscogee-Creek Nation in Oklahoma. The rest is history. Richard is the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for the KVWETV (Coweta) Creek Tribe and a member of the Perdido Bay Creek Tribe. In 2009 he was the architect for Oklahoma’s Trail of Tears Memorial at Council Oak Park in Tulsa. He is the president of the Apalache Foundation, which is sponsoring research into the advanced indigenous societies of the Lower Southeast.

40 Comments

  1. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Richard T., There does seem to be many similarities between Polynesians and the native Americans you have mentioned.
    Having said that, What or who do you mean with Latika? Never heard of Latika Polynesians and Latika pottery; or is it misspelled (perhaps an auto-correction)?
    You probably meant to say Lapita, Lapita pottery etc.

    When you look on the distribution map of the Lapita cultural complex (see link below) you can see that it stretches from eastern Papua New Guinea, Melanesia (Bismarck Archipelago, Solomon islands, Vanuatu, New Caledonia) and Western Polynesia (Fiji, Tonga, Samoa).
    The fact that Papua New Guinea and Melanesia is in the Lapita distribution area could explain the Australoid genetic (DNA) motif found by Dr Reich in Oaxaca (wa’haka) Mexico; south/southeast of the Orizaba volcano the starting point of the Kashete-Creek migration legend.
    With that in mind, a possible Australoid DNA marker could also be present in some of native tribes such as Muskogee-Creek and Uchee who show up with Polynesian DNA markers in southeastern North America. Of course more DNA research is needed to determine if there is or is not any Australoid DNA in southeastern North American native tribes.

    Links:
    Distribution Map Lapita Cultural Complex
    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/mapsonline/sites/default/files/styles/cartogis_700x700/public/maps/bitmap/standard/2015/06/11-208_Pacific_with_Lapita.png

    Lapita Culture
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapita_culture

    Reply
    • LAPITA It was late at night and I had been painting in the sun all day.

      Reply
      • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

        That explains the confussion.
        The Polynesian culture you refer to in your article/post is Lapita.

        Hopefully it’s more clear now for POOF members/readers.
        Also hope you had a goodnight rest and the needed sleep so you will make less/no mistakes.
        As you know there are many critics out there who surely would use such mistakes against you to try everything it takes to disqualify you and to ridicule you.

        The Lapita cultural link between Pacific Islanders and Native Tribes in MesoAmerica and Southeastern North America is very interesting.

        Keep up the good work.

        Reply
  2. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Richard T., Right after my reply I noticed you corrected the minor mistake and you also included some new pictures.
    The picture with the so-called war captive caught my eye. In my many research hours on the Australoid, Melanesian, Micronesian and Polynesian cultures I knew I had seen that type of head and facial features before.
    Here is the surprise; the head and facial features is similar if not identical to the canoe prow head figures in the Solomon Islands.

    Take a look at the links below and give your opinion if the heads of the so-called war captive and the Solomon canoe prow head figures could be from the same or similar people (Australo-Melanesians?).

    Links:
    Varilaku – Pacific Arts From The Solomon Islands
    https://shop.nga.gov.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1500x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/v/a/varilaku_fc_de.jpg

    A Solomon Islander – Antique Print Gallery – (Date 1889 – Artist: R. Atkinson)
    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1331/9149/products/1400265.jpg?v=1468029541

    Canoe figurehead – Solomon Islands
    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_1976.351.jpg

    https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/solomon-island-art/

    Solomon Island chalk stone head
    https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/AF5-2.jpg

    Reply
    • Yes, I was up early this morning to begin painting the outside of the house before it gets too hot. The late afternoon heat yesterday fried my brain. Thanks for tipping me off before too many people saw the mistake.

      The similarity of the Melonesian figures to certain stone carvings by the “Olmec” Civilization is absolutely amazing. Your evidence has convinced me more than ever.

      Reply
      • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

        You’re welcome. Sometimes one could use help where it is needed. Providing help to others is normal; at least it should be.
        Hope you have painted most of your house already so you can take more time to rest.

        Regarding the similarity of the Melanesian figures to certain stone carvings by the “Olmec” civilization actually came as a surprise and only after you included the (so-called) war captive statue/stone carving.
        Eversince the DNA research couple years back finding Australoid/Australo-Melanesian DNA in some native American tribes ;especially in the Amazones / South America; I kept an eye out for any new information which could lead to more evidence for their presence in the rest of the Americas.

        The fact that Dr. Reich found an Australoid genetic motif in some natives (Mixe to be more precise) in the Oaxaca region in Mexico with the provided image of a war captive statue/stone carving from the “Olmec” civilization which you provided has lead to a physical evidence that strengthens the Australoid/Australo-Melanesian presence in MesoAmerica other than only the Amazones and the Aleut Islands.
        Personally I think the Australo-Melanesian DNA in some Aleutian Islanders and some Amazonian tribes is older than the Australoid/Australo-Melanesian DNA in MesoAmerica (Oaxaca; Mexico).
        Since the Lapita culture started around 1600 BC to 500 BC it should be clear that the Aleutian and Amazonian Australo-Melanesian type was atleast 15,000 years older.

        There are some questions that arise:
        – Did the Lapita cultured Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians arrive in MesoAmerica prior or during the “Olmec” civilization?
        – Did the Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians traveled together or separately; if separate who arrived first?
        – Did the Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians ever lived together; if so; did they mixed and have offspring?
        – Did the Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians have a friendly relationship or a hostile relationship with eachother?

        If after more DNA sampling and testing of native Americans in southeast North America only show Polynesian DNA markers (in some tribes) one could conclude that Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians did not mix together and probably were hostile to eachother.
        This could also mean that the Polynesians fled Mexico to escape Australo-Melanesian hostilities. When you, POOF members/readers have seen and compared the Melanesian figures and certain “Olmec” stone carvings you will know by now that those figures are from the Solomon Islands.
        The Solomon Islanders were headhunters and some might say very warlike. This would explain a possible out migration of the (fleeing?) Polynesians to southeast North America.

        Who knowns, maybe the so-called black people in the early Viking saga’s were actually descendants of Australo-Melanesian Solomon Islanders.
        Than again, Why would Australo-Melanesians go that far to the northeast, unless there were still hostilities between the Polynesians and Australo-Melanesians until they almost annihilated eachother.
        Another possibility at least for Australo-Melanesians could be that they were captured and sold as slaves in early post-Columbian times. Maybe it’s too far fethced and maybe it’s best to discuss it in another article/post.

        Reply
        • This is interesting. The Lapita, Poverty Point and the “Olmec” Cultures had exactly same starting point-1600 BC. Lapita disappeared after around 500 BC, while La Venta (Zoque ~ Olmec capital) was abandoned around 400 BC.

          Reply
          • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

            It is interesting indeed. Especially when the Lapita, Poverty Point and the “Olmec” cultures had exactly the same starting point around 1600 BC and virtually disappeared around the same time period around 500 BC and 400 BC.

            The Lapita culture was probably peaceful between Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians and was about sharing knowledge and trade in precious goods for roughly a thousand (1000) years. All of a sudden something very bad happend.

            Theory / Scenario:
            I’m starting to think a third party, a tribe or tribes from other/different ethnicities tried to sabotage the ‘seemingly’ peaceful Lapita Culture ;for more regional power; and made favorable deals with either the Lapita Autralo-Melanesians or the Lapita Polynesians which resulted in tensions.
            These tensions between Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians provoked by a third party of unknown origin grew to a full on battle in which the Polynesians decided to flee to southeastern North America. The once peaceful shared Lapita Culture is no more. From 500 BC – 400 BC onwards the Lapita cultured Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians lived separated from eachother with hostile tendencies.

            Richard T., It would be a good time for you to contact some of the MesoAmerican (Mexican?) archaeologists, ethnologists etc and share your knowledge and findings on the similarities between the Lapita Culture, “Olmec” civilization and the native tribes in Peru and southeast North America.
            Out of a strategic point of view you will bring the cultural similarities between these geografical distant populations to light and to a bigger mainstream and public audience which will help you spread your information even further and faster.
            Who knows, Maybe you will be asked to do interviews in (respected) radio/tv programs (documentaries) and for archaelogical magazines etc. It’s something to think about and to consider, right?

            Perhaps you could also put together a picture with comparisons between the Melanesian figures and the “Olmec” stone carvings like the ‘war captive’ to give more strength and weight for the Presence of Australo-Melanesians and Polynesians of the Lapita Culture in MesoAmerica / Mexico.

          • Right now I am polishing up my documentary film making skills, so I can created a Youtube about the “Olmec”- Soque – Polynesian connection when I finish work on the house in about six weeks. I have a video camera now, but have not had time to use it because of working 24/7 on the house. As you may recall, a man pretending to be a man, who is a reputable builder walked away with all my money for the materials in this project . . . meaning I have had to do most of the work myself. I certainly did not anticipate that local law enforcement would blatantly protect the man from jail time, because I am not a member of the Party and have an IQ over 65. I live very close to the Soquee River Valley.

  3. kkakins@gmail.com'

    My husband’s mother is Cherokee and his father is Chocktaw and my husband has that nose and those lips and that build. Now I’m convinced I’ve got to get his DNA done!

    Reply
    • Right! Most of the Snowbird Cherokees look just like those “Olmec” stone carvings. They are really Soque, not ethnic Cherokees.

      Reply
  4. Bellcamp221@yahoo.com'

    Hey Richard, I will also suggest another piece in this puzzle of peopling of the Asia, the Pacific, and the Americas. That would be the cultivation of the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas). It says it’s origin is Central and South America (Yacatan Peninsula to the mouth of Orinoco River in Venezuela) and spread in Caribbean and South America by 2500BC. In 2018 a 57 million year old fossil leaf from morning glory plant was found in Meghalaya (NE India) which suggests it may first have appeared in East Gondwana (Asia) not the Americas. Sweet potato was grown in Polynesia before western exploration. There was a sweet potato carbon dated in the Cook Islands to 1000AD. Current thinking “they” say is the sweet potato was brought to Polynesia by Polynesians that traveled to South America and back, then spread across Polynesia. Many different peoples have sweet potato as a food staple around Asia, the Pacific Ocean and the Americas. You have written about the wild sweet potato in the Souheastern US. I find this very interesting to study further.

    Reply
    • Except the Creek’s ancestors were growing sweet potatoes in large quantities on the Chattahoochee and Etowah Rivers by at least 200 BC or earlier. The Creeks and Panoans of Peru use the same word for sweet potato – aho. Polynesians use another word.

      Reply
    • Here@Main.com'

      The sweet potato fossil is misidentified. We know from genetics where and when the Polynesians made contact, within a few hundred years. That theory is off by thousands.

      Reply
  5. Bellcamp221@yahoo.com'

    Way back in the early 70’s I was friends with and worked with several Cherokee fellows at Frontierland in Cherokee, NC. Two of them had the last name of Bird. They looked very similar to the photos posted. One day we drove way, way back into the boonies to a place they called Snowbird to visit their family members. They told me of an ancient path that was used to go across the mountains into East TN where I was from. I was interested in what they told me back then because I had seen and heard stories of Indian places in my neck of the woods since I was a child. Good jMemories from the past I have not forgotten.

    Reply
    • I believe you! I couldn’t believe my eyes when a Snowbird Cherokee friend introduced me to his fellow members of their stickball team. It was like I had walked into a time machine and landed in Tabasco in 900 BC.

      Reply
  6. markveale@hotmail.com'

    Richard, Central America looks like one of the “mixing pots” of the Americas and with the invention of Corn in the Western side of Mexico…to Panama…then Ecuador…looks like some of them migrated towards the South. The three early locations that corn were grown. That Polynesian man could pose for some of them Olmecs stone heads. So as noted by one of their clans in New Zealand they believe they traveled from the first iron area of the world (2200- 2400 BC) Northern India…to the Americas and then to the Pacific. The Miccosukee, Creeks, Cherokees do look to be related to the Polynesians. Another Great find Richard. No iron in the Mediterranean Sea area till around 1200 BC brought by the Sea peoples?

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/discovery-ancient-indian-daggers-may-push-back-start-iron-age-020352

    Reply
  7. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Richard T., It’s terrible that someone walked away with all your money for the materials. It’s also a shame that the law doesn’t apply to certain people.
    Aren’t there any locals who are able to help you out?
    Regarding your youtube about the “Olmec”, Soque and Polynesian connection; it would be good to get more detailed info so others can get an idea on the migration and relation between these geographically distant people and cultures.
    Looking forward to more informative articles.

    Reply
    • Well, I am doing the work and since I am an architect with decades of experience in historic preservation, the workmanship is better than what I could pay to get done. Nevertheless, it takes time.

      Reply
  8. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Richard T., Here’s something which will make you scratch your head.

    In doing more research on a possible relation between the Lapita Culture and the “Olmec” civilization something unexpected and interesting came to light.

    Earlier in your article/articles on the “Olmec” civilization you mentioned the Zoque/Soque and Tamau-te in relation to the “Olmec” civilization and some native tribes such as the Soque and Creeks in southeastern North America.
    I came across a book named “The history of Melanesian society” published in 1914 written by William Halse Rivers, Rivers (Dr. Rivers).

    On page 205, chapter 24 (XXIV, Secret Societies) William Rivers talks about the Melanesian secret societies “Sukwe” and “Tamate”.
    In this chapter he proposes a theory/thesis that the secret societies “Sukwe” and “Tamate” were introduced in Melanesia by immigrants who he later in chapter 25 (XXV, Tikiopa; page 234 onwards) thinks are Polynesians meaning the immigrants in Melanesia and Polynesians are one and the same.
    This could strengthen the link between the Lapita Culture ;which stretches from Melanesia to West Polynesia; and the “Olmec” civilization in MesoAmerica, Mexico.

    Here one could see a similarty between “Sukwe” and “Zoque”/”Soque”; and between “Tamate” and “Tamau-te”. There is even some similarity between “Tamate Liwoa” and “Tamaulipas”.
    Eventhough it seems to be too good to be true, there is a possibility that there is some truth to it.

    I have provided the links to the book and chapter/pages below for you and POOF members/readers to read. Take a look and read it without taking hasty conclusions.

    It seems to be far fetched yet it’s something which you would like to include in a future youtube video explaining the similarities and probable relation between the Lapita Culture and “Olmec” civilization.

    Source/Links:
    The history of Melanesian society – 1914 – by William Halse Rivers, Rivers
    https://archive.org/stream/historyofmelanes02riveuoft#page/204 – Internet Archive BookReader

    https://ia802704.us.archive.org/9/items/historyofmelanes02riveuoft/historyofmelanes02riveuoft.pdf – PDF format

    Reply
  9. ebonysaiyan@gmail.com'

    My dna shows as Mesoamerican and South American on gedmatch calculators and I also get Melanesian/Oceanian/Austronesian/SEA …..I’m a Black American with paternal ancestry from Monroe County , Al and Maternally tracing to Letohatchee Lowndes County, AL

    Reply
    • Well, Jay, as I wrote . . . that unexpected combination of DNA is showing up a lot in the traditional territory of the Creeks, but the world of genetics and anthropology do not seem aware of it.

      Reply
    • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

      Jay25, It is interesting that your DNA shows as MesoAmerican, South American and Melanesian/Oceanian/Austronesian/SEA.

      The following is not to discredit you and not to say that you’re wrong.
      It is important to get more details on your family history to rule out any other possibilities.

      Do you happen to have any Malagasy (people from Madagascar) ancestry? Malagasy are a mixture of Austronesian, Southeast Asian (SEA) and Bantu (African).
      In colonial times there were Malagasy slaves brought to the Americas. Although the slave trade dit not import many Malagasy into the Americas there is a town in South Carolina that could be of importance which is Charleston.

      David Griffiths and the Missionary “History of Madagascar” – by Gwyn Campbell – page 449
      Quotes:
      “As rice was early exported to America where the first cargo was probably delivered in 1686 by Captain John Thurber (c. 1625-c. 1705) to Dr. Henry Woodward of Charleston, South Carolina, who subsequently planted it, it was long thought that the rice indurstry of the American South owed its origins to Malagasy rice.”

      “However, it has recently become clear that most rice cultivated in the American South is Oryza glaberrima, of West African origin, rather than O. sativa of Asian (and Malagasy) origin; and imported with West African slaves, rather than by American traders or pirates to Madagascar.”

      John Thurber (from wikipedia)
      Quotes:
      “John Thurber (1649-1717, last name also Churcher) was a pirate trader and slaver active off Madagascar. He is best known for his role in introducing rice to America as a staple crop and export commodity.

      “Continuing his slave-trading voyages to Madagascar, he worked with another New York merchant, Frederick Philipse. He made a supply run in 1693 in Philipse’s 200-ton, 10-gun, 30-man brigantine Charles to Adam Baldridge’s pirate trading post at Ile ste Marie off Madacasgar, bringing in general goods and returning with slaves.”

      Malagasy People (from wikipedia)
      Quotes:
      “The Malagasy (French: Malgache) are an Austronesian and East African ethnic group native to the island and country of Madagascar.”

      “In a 2010 study, the Polynesian motif (mtDNA haplotype B4a1a1a) frequency occurs varied among three ethnic groups: 50% in Merina, 22 % in Vezo, and 13% in Mikea. There are two additional mutations (1473 and 3423A) found in all Polynesian motif carriers of Madagascar, hence named the Malagasy motif.”

      “Malagasy slaves were also transported during slavery times to Brazil and the US, but their number and the number of their descendants in these countries is unknown. It is likely most of these descendants are not aware of their Malagasy ancestry.”

      “Robert Reed Church, an African-American businessman in Memphis, Tennessee in the 19th century, was said to be of Malagasy descent through his enslaved mother.”
      ———

      Jay, There is a possibility that the Melanesian/Oceanian/Austronesian/SEA DNA which you have is from a possible Malagasy ancestor.
      A way to rule out Malagasy ancestory is to test your DNA for the Malagasy motif.

      If your DNA doesn’t have the Malagasy motif you could possibly be a descendant of a mixed Oaxaca (wa’haka) Mixe (and Zoque?) native of MesoAmerica who have a Australoid genetic motif and the ancestors of the Kashete-Creek who seemingly have Polynesian DNA.

      Notes:
      – It is said that “most” rice cultivated in the American South is of west African origin which means “some” rice cultivated in the American South could still be of Asian and Malagasy origin.
      – Sometimes John Thurber’s date of birth and death is cited as 1625-1705 instead of 1649-1717.
      – John Thurber ;believed to be the introducer of (Malagasy-) rice in America; did bring Malagasy slaves to the Americas.
      ———

      Source/Links:
      David Griffiths and the Missionary “History of Madagascar” – by Gwyn Campbell

      John Thurber
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Thurber

      Malagasy People
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malagasy_people

      Reply
      • No I don’t have Melanesian. My crude 2005 DNA report said 1% Polynesian. Recent DNA tests done by my cousin Ray specifically state Maori Polynesian. His family has more Polynesian than mine, because his father was part Uchee. See, it could be that what they are calling “Maori” is really the DNA markers of the aboriginal Red Haired Maori, who originated in Scandinavia.

        Reply
        • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

          Richard, The comment is aimed at Jay25 (the comment/reply aimed at Jay starts with “Jay25”).

          He states that his DNA on gedmatch calculators also get Melanesian/Oceanian/Austronesian/SEA.

          Your (Richard) DNA isn’t in question since most if not all POOF members/readers already know you and your cousin have Polynesian DNA.

          When Jay (Jay25) would like to rule out Malagasy ancestry (Malagasy are people from Madagascar with Austronesian/Southeast Asian DNA) he should test his DNA for the Malagasy motif.
          Only if his DNA does not have the Malagasy motif it might be possible that the Melanesian DNA which showed on the gedmatch calculators came possibly from the Australoid/Australo-Melanesian people in the Oaxaca region in MesoAmerica/Mexico.

          Reply
          • ebonysaiyan@gmail.com'

            Hey I’m not ruling out Malagasy it’s very likely Madagascan, but I do have a second cousin showing up with Polynesian dna

          • These are all unanswered questions. I do think that the geneticists are off base in making broad pronouncements to get media attention, when we really do not know what was going on “back then.”

          • ebonysaiyan@gmail.com'

            Possible New ancestry dna updated results with hack trick CameroonCongo: 38-48%
            Benin/Togo:27-29%
            AngloSaxon:5-11%
            IvoryCoastGh:10-25%
            Mali:2-10%
            Celtic:0-2%
            France:0-1%
            America North:0-1%
            Sweden:0-1%
            Philippines:0-1%
            AfricanSanpygmy :0-3%
            Norway:0-2%

  10. ebonysaiyan@gmail.com'

    Really great blog by the way

    Reply
  11. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Richard T., The so-called war captive ;described as a monkey/monkey man looking up to the sky; which can be seen in Parque La Venta, Villahermosa (Tabasco) is probably neither a war-captive or monkey/monkey man.
    After doing more research in the Melanesian wood- and stone figure carvings it seems to be that if (when?) the particular “Olmec” stone carving in Villahermosa is linked to Melanesia (Australo-Melanesians) it probably represents an ancestor or spirit figure.

    I have provided links below for comparison between the La Venta, Villahermosa “Olmec” stone carving and the Melanesian wood- and stone figures. Also I have provided a map of Papua New Guinea for you and POOF members/readers to find the Melanesian island origin of the wooden and stone figures.
    Note:
    – The Tolai (Kulap) Figure, Ancestor figure from Massim – Trobriand Islands from circa 1900-1925, Massim Figure stool Trobiands Islands, Malangan Figure and the Sukwe fern figure from Vanuatu resemble the “Olmec” stone carving the most in posture.

    Source/Link:
    A Male Stone Ancestor Figure, Tolai People, New Britain (Nineteenth Century)
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/img.aasd.com.au/73650593.jpg

    Papua New Guinea, New Britain, Gazelle Peninsula, Tolai people, circa 1900
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dance_Staff_Finial_LACMA_M.2008.66.29.jpg

    Figure of the iniet society of men, representing an ancestor: wood and plant fiber – Tolai people, Gazelle Peninsula of New Britain, Papua New Guinea – 1907
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Neubritannien_Figur_des_Iniet-Bundes_EthnM.jpg

    Tolai (Kulap) Figure
    https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Kulap.jpg

    Ancestor figure – Massim – Trobriand Islands – circa 1900-1925
    https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2016/4/28/d/e/c/deca14e0-0d4e-11e6-94e5-61b6d0e24482.jpg

    https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2016/4/28/d/f/8/df8e579c-0d4e-11e6-8399-9ca9d435cbe6.jpg

    https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2016/4/28/d/f/c/dfca34a6-0d4e-11e6-93a1-4647987463b3.jpg

    https://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2016/4/28/d/e/f/def71468-0d4e-11e6-8613-69005b25111c.jpg

    Massim Figure – Circa 1920’s
    https://artifactcollector.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/BG14t-1.jpg

    Massim Figure stool Trobiands Islands
    https://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/8/8/2/0/5/webimg/437335820_o.jpg

    A Standing Figure Massim Region, Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea (circa 1900)
    https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/04a45880-88a8-4560-86b2-a4dd00d8ef5b/677b4ee9-813d-431f-e0d9-472b4ddca541/original.jpg

    Massim lime spatula carving
    https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/massim-lime-spatula-carving.jpg

    Massim Figure
    https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Massim-Figure.png

    Malangan Figure
    https://www.new-guinea-tribal-arts.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Malangan-figure.jpg

    Sukwe society Fern Figure – Vanuatu, Melanesia
    https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/661/flashcards/5437661/jpg/sukwe_society_fern_figure3-145D44FA5DF793CFFE4.jpg

    Olmec stone carving “monkey looking to the sky” / “war captive”?
    http://www.realoaxaca.com/jpg/ventamonkey2.jpg

    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3233/1240/1600/trip%20back%20to%20canada_1610.jpg

    Map Papua New Guinea – Bismarck Archipelago (Manus, New Ireland, New Britain), Bougainville, Milne Bay
    http://www.geographicguide.com/pictures/papua-new-guinea.jpg

    Reply
    • You are correct. I photographed the statue at La Venta Park . . . not the actual archaeological site. At the time, they called it a captive monkey, but it looked to me like a human with his hands bound behind his neck. I have to paint today. There is no rain in the forecast and winter is approaching. However, the photos, which you sent me are very important. When I have time, I will download them and post them in a special POOF article. To me they are proof that there were people from the western Pacific Basin living in Mexico 2700 years ago.

      Reply
      • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

        Hope the paintwork on your house is almost done.

        Regarding the “Olmec” stone carving:
        Perhaps the archaeoligists at the time who called it a captive monkey thought it looked too dissimilar to other stone carvings and did not think much about it.

        The facial feature of the so-called captive monkey does look more human. Close up pictures of the head of the “Olmec” stone carving can be seen in the links below.
        Notice the area below the earlobe. When you look closely there seems to be an earring attached to the earlobe. With that in mind the “Olmec” stone carving would be ruled out for depicting a monkey.

        Links:
        Close up pictures “Olmec” stone carving La Venta, Villahermosa (Tabasco, Mexico)
        http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3532/4068879799_b3ffbb1c55_b.jpg

        https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uXDMPKN0Bjo/S6QkosUnEPI/AAAAAAAAEbw/2kVcfgzp9DA/s640/Stone+monkey.jpg

        Reply
        • iwg42@hotmail.com'

          Hey Richard,
          Great articles on the Olmec! Urisahatu I really like the pictures of the “monkey man”. The first thing I thought was it is very close to the description Richard quoted from early settlers of the statue in the center of Yamacutah. A being looking up to the stars with a detailed head and torso and an abstract or uncarved base on a mound in the center. I am not sure of the time line between the Olmecs disappearance and when Yamacutah was built, or if it is a coincident or possible evolution of a religion.
          Many more question than answers again!
          Thanks to you Richard and to all the readers of POOF. The comments, discussions and links are very interesting and have given me many hours of pleasure and have helped lead me to a better understanding of the history of the world and the interconnections in the past that made our world today.

          Reply
          • urisahatu@yahoo.com'

            Wayne Ivey, Thank you for your comment. Sometimes there are differences of opinion which is good. Everyone has the right to have their own opinion.
            There should be room for discussions and sharing information/knowledge without pushing one specific narrative. More than ever new evidence will come to light which could and will alter the things we know today.

            Regarding the “monkey man”:
            When you look at Pacific Island art figures/sculptures you will notice than most if not all figures/sculptures are antromorphic which basically means treating of animals, gods and objects as if they are human in appearance.
            Also the Pacific Island figures/sculptures seem to be a form of abstract art. Some of the “Olmec” figures/sculptures also show a form of abstract art yet there are figures/sculptures which have a lot of detail to the point the art form looks closer to realism.
            The face of the “monkey man” like the “Olmec” heads could be considered as realism yet the basic pose of sculptures is possibly an influence from a Lapita cultured people.
            Of course there is always a chance that certain poses and art styles are universal and have nothing to do with being influenced or getting inpsiration from other cultures.

            The fact remains that some native Americans show up with similar cultural-, linguistic traits and even DNA markers from Pacific Islanders (Melanesians and Polynesians).
            Hope future comments, information/knowledge and links to additional information will help POOF members/readers in their journey to uncover true history.

  12. Here@main.com'

    Nope. Genetic and historical data already clarified this.

    The original Amerindians trapped on the Bering Strait cake from 2 genetic ancestries. One was Ancient Southeast Asian—and these were marine hunter gatherers— the other the Ancient North Eurasians, who were big game hunters.

    Genetic data also indicates that the ASEA mostly contributed female genetics to the ANE, and the ANEs mostly contributed male genetics to the ASEAs. Translation: there was a whole lot of raping going on.

    A big chunk of the culturally ASEAs finally flee in desperation along the coast. They settle everything below the ice. They reach Chile. One subgroup founds the Clovis culture, and they do what all big game hunters did and wipe out a huge proportion of the other people around them. It’s getting warm, so they head north—up the now clear ice corridor. Just on the other side, they meet their old pals, the formerly culturally ANE people, and it doesn’t go well—they leave few artifacts here because they couldn’t take over!

    So the formerly ANE people, now the Algonquin language people, come down. But even though the Clovis people and their descendants couldn’t wipe them out, they couldn’t with the Clovis people out, either, or push them out, so they’re stuck with claiming new lands as the glaciers retreat, with rare exceptions.

    The Clovis people were most likely of the Sioux group, BTW.

    Anyway, way to the south a long time later, some more modern Southeast Asians do pop up after they’ve done the dirty with some Micronesians, and they trade, bring a crop, and bring sperm to the coast of South America. But not Central America. That aboriginal/Micronesian marker is missing.

    The people of the California coast, Central America, and South America swap less genetic data with the Algonquins and so keep a more classic Asiatic look about them. Btw, it’s the ANE genetics that made Northern Europeans so much taller than Southern Europeans—the Indians with a bigger component of this admixture were also intimidatingly tall. Much taller than even the most well nourished among the Aztecan family group. You also get a nose that sticks out (which only Amerindians, other people with a lot of ANE, or Semites get—everyone else in the world gets a flatter nose) that gives the classic Indian-in-front-of-a-tobacco-store look that only those more northern tribes had.

    They were pushing north and never really encountered the Sioux or their neighbors for a very long time!

    The Creek look in the middle of the continuum—which also makes sense.

    Check my narrative. It fits genes, language, and recorded history. Kennewick man? Solved! Aboriginal traces in South America? Solved!
    Polynesian sweet potatoes? Solved! Clovis artifact patterns? Solved! Coastal linguistic diversity? Solved! Why everyone else hated the Algonquins? Also solved! Weird timeline that makes the traditional ice corridor impossible? Solved that! Why people were so desperate they’d run down the frozen coast blind in boats? Totally solved!

    Reply
    • Mimi, keep in mind, though that there are no DNA test markers for the Uchee and Creeks and we have an extremely different cultural history than the various tribes from which geneticists are making broad generalizations. Our genetic situation is made very complex because the Creek Confederacy was composed of about two dozen ethnic groups. I strongly suspect that the core Muskogeans were descended from the ancient Marine hunters, but unlike the Choctaw, the Creeks represent the blending of Mesoamericans, Panoans, Arawaks and Uchee. I had a crude (by today’s standards) genetic test in 2005, which showed me to have Scandinavian, Mesoamerican, Sami-Finish, Gaelic and Polynesian ancestors. A first cousin, who is a retired professor from UT, is studying our family with the latest genetic technology, but still finding that same strange combination. The many petroglyphs in the Georgia Mountains gold belt are identical to those in SW Ireland and Southern Scandinavia and not like those found in the SW United States.

      Reply
  13. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Jay (Jay25) and Richard T., The Polynesian DNA can be confusing especially for people who aren’t familiar with genetics; not to say that I’m an expert or geneticist, yet I have been doing more research than the average “Joe” so to speak.
    Continue reading without taking hasty conclusions.

    When people talk about Polynesian DNA they have to remember that it’s mainly based on mtDNA (Mitochondrial DNA) which is DNA passed down from the mother.
    Y-DNA (Y-chromosome DNA) is DNA passed down from the father which is mostly not taken into acount when researching/studying DNA relatedness between ancient populations.

    In the following articles (which can be found and read in the links below) it will give you a better understanding on the genetic makeup of the Polynesian DNA.

    ScienceDirect article – “Melanesian origin of Polynesian Y chromosomes” – Current Biology – Volume 10, Issue 20, 14 October 2000, Pages 1237-1246 – (Manfred Kayser, Silke Brauer etc.)

    Oxford University Press – “Melanesian and Asian Origins of Polynesians: mtDNA and Y Chromosome Gradients Across the Pacific” – Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 23, Issue 11, 1 November 2006, Pages 2234–2244 – (Manfred Kayser, Silke Brauer etc.)
    ———

    Here is something what you, POOF members/readers have to keep in mind.
    The mtDNA ;in this case (mainly) used to determine if your ancestor is Polynesian; is the so-called Polynesian Motif also known as mtDNA B4a1a1 (It’s ancestors B4, B4a, B4b1).
    Ancestor to the mtDNA Polynesian Motif is of Asian (south China region/Taiwan) origin.

    Over the years (decades; centuries even) there have been many theories on who the males of the Polynesians are and where they came from, ranging from Asia, Papua/Melanesia, Europe etc.
    When you have read the articles which I have provded in the links below, you will know by now that most (65,8%) of the Y-DNA of the Polynesians in the Pacific Ocean is Melanesian in origin.

    This however does not mean all Y-DNA of Polynesians are by definition over 65% Melanesian. There are many degrees of genetic mixing in the Pacific region.
    Logically the Polynesians living near Papua/Melanesia will have a higher degree of Papuan/Melanesian Y-DNA.

    Example:
    100% proto-Polynesian would be both Y-DNA and mtDNA from Taiwan (remember Tawainese B4, B4a, B4b1 mtDNA is ancestral to the Polynesian motif mtDNA B4a1a1).

    The proto-Polynesians migrated outwards from Taiwan atleast via two routes:
    1. via Philippines through Papua coast/Melanesia into Polynesia
    2. via Philippines through Island Southeast Asia into Madagascar

    These two migration routes translates as follows:
    1. Y-DNA Papua/Melanesia + mtDNA B4 > B4a1a1 = Lapita (Lapita Culture = coastal east Papua New Guinea, Melanesia and west Polynesia)
    2. Y-DNA Africa (Bantu) + mtDNA B4 > B4a1a1a2 = Malagasy (Madagascar, off the eastcoast of Africa. The Comoros Islands ;and some believe some areas on mainland east Africa; were also settled by mixed proto-Polynesians)

    A possible third and fourth route with a possible cultural exchange and DNA mix would be from Pacific Northwest and the Indus Valley region.

    3. Although not detectible genetically linked to Taiwanese mtDNA B4 the Pacific Northwest Haida Gwaii and Tlingit show at least cultural affinities with Polynesians.
    4. Y-DNA Indus (-Valley)? + mtDNA B4 > B4a1a1c, B4a1a1a3 and B4a1a1a5 = Rapa Nui / Maori (possibly several settlements in Meso-/Central America and South America from where they migrated via Rapa Nui (Easter Island) to Aotearoa (New Zealand); the mtDNA B4 could be from proto-Malagasy or similar population in the Indian Ocean).
    ———

    Jay (Jay25), The Melanesian genetic signal which showed up in your earlier DNA chart could be from a Melanesian male who somehow reached the Americas; possibly via MesoAmerica where similar Lapita pottery and culture was present.
    The Polynesian DNA is linked to mtDNA B4 and the multiple mutations/variants thereof.

    Polynesian mtDNA stays in the same Haplogroup B while the Y-DNA are from all over the globe inlcuding Papua/Melanesia, east Asia, Indus Valley and east Africa.

    Notes:
    – It is believed that the specific Polynesian motif B4a1a1 arose in the Bismarck Archipelago (east of Papua New Guinea, Melanesia).
    – In 2015 DNA research/studies have found Australo-Melanesian DNA in some native Americans including Aleutian Islanders (Aleutian Islands are the islands west of Alaska) and Surui people of Amazonian Brazil.
    – Lapita is not a name of a people or tribe. It’s a given name to a culture which lasted for at least a thousand years stretching from coastal east Papua New Guinea, Melanesia into west Polynesia.
    – Although there does not seem to be Melanesian DNA to be found in Meso-/Central America the similarity in Lapita pottery/culture and the pottery/culture found in MesoAmerica when having a commen origin can not rule out Melanesian (Australo-Melanesian) DNA in some natives of these regions.
    – Malagasy motif is mtDNA B4a1a1a2.
    – Haida Gwaii people belong to mtDNA A2 and do not posses any variant of mtDNA B. Haida Gwaii people have Q1a3a Y-DNA which is more common in many native Americans.
    – Migration legends indicate a migration from the Pacific Northwest including Haida Gwaii into the Hawaiian islands.
    – It is unclear if the Indus Valley people mixed with an existing Polynesian group which in this case is the Maori or if the Indus Valley people mixed with proto-Polynesians (proto-Malagasy?) (mtDNA B4) which would give rise to the Maori people.
    – The Rongorongo script of Rapa Nui (Easter Island) is similar if not identical to the Indus Valley script.
    – Maori motifs are mtDNA B4a1a1c, B4a1a1a3 and B4a1a1a5.
    ———

    sources/Links:
    Melanesian origin of Polynesian Y chromosomes – Current Biology – Volume 10 – Issue 20 – 14 October, 2000 – (Manfred Kayser, Silke Brauer etc.)
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Melanesian and Asian Origins of Polynesians – mtDNA and Y Chromosome Gradients Across the Pacific – Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 23 – Issue 11 – 1 November, 2006 – Pages 2234–2244 – (Manfred Kayser, Silke Brauer etc.)
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/23/11/2234/1333210

    Mysterious link emerges between Native Americans and people half a globe away – July 21, 2015 – By Michael Balter
    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/mysterious-link-emerges-between-native-americans-and-people-half-globe-away

    Complete Mitochondrial Genome Sequencing Reveals Novel Haplotypes in a Polynesian Population – Published: April 13, 2012 – (Miles Benton, Donia Macartney-Coxson etc.)
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035026

    (Theorized) Polynesian Migration Map including Lapita Cultural Complex area
    https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/TK64-TW-Pacific-Migration.jpg

    Clan, language, and migration history has shaped genetic diversity in Haida and Tlingit populations from Southeast Alaska – (Theodore G. Schurr, Matthew C. Dulik etc.)
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e96d/ecfcf14cb549d84fafdbf0d7489ca6ed9672.pdf

    Reply
  14. urisahatu@yahoo.com'

    Richard T., Here’s something you surely would like to take a look at and include in your research.
    After a couple busy weeks (month) finally have some time to continue research in the so-called “Olmec” stone figures.

    We have talked about the Olmec “war-captive”/”monkey man” for a bit and provided links to similar (ancestor) figures which can be found within the Lapita Cultural area.
    Now I would like to add an Olmec stone figure that will be even more convincing evidence of at least some cultural relationship between the Lapita Culture and the so-called “Olmec” Culture.

    The stone figure in question is said to be: “Olmec Stone Figure Holding Her Hands by Her Ears”
    That’s an important description since now we know it’s a female especially when you compare it to the “Sukwe society Fern Figure” from Vanuatu, Melanesia which is within the Lapita CUltural area.
    When you look at the “Sukwe” figure you can clearly see it depicts a woman holding her arms up with her hands at her ears. Further more both “Olmec” and “Sukwe” figures (sculptures) have their knees slightly bent; the knees and feet pointing towards eachother.
    Regarding an actual cultural link; although it still could be a coincidence, in this case the evidence for a possible cultural link is becoming stronger.

    The following links will direct you to pictures for comparison:

    Sukwe society Fern Figure – Vanuatu, Melanesia
    https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/661/flashcards/5437661/jpg/sukwe_society_fern_figure3-145D44FA5DF793CFFE4.jpg

    http://www.barakatgallery.com/Auction/ItemImgs/CK.0763.jpg – Olmec Stone Figure Holding Her Hands by Her Ears – CK.0763

    Origin: Mesoamerica
    Circa: 1200 BC to 500 BC
    Dimensions: 9.375″ (23.8cm) high x 4″ (10.2cm) wide
    Collection: Pre-Columbian
    Medium: Jade

    Location: United States

    http://www.barakatgallery.com/store/index.cfm/FuseAction/ItemDetails/UserID/0/CFID/42460426/CFTOKEN/96511761/CategoryID/31/SubCategoryID/855/ItemID/34686.htm

    Olmec stone carving “monkey looking to the sky” / “war captive”?
    http://www.realoaxaca.com/jpg/ventamonkey2.jpg

    http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3233/1240/1600/trip%20back%20to%20canada_1610.jpg

    Reply

Leave a Reply to Urisahatu Cancel reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Subscribe to POOF via Email

Enter your email address to subscribe to this website and receive notifications of new posts by email.

Join 712 other subscribers

The Information World is changing!

People of One Fire needs your help to evolve with it.

We are now celebrating the 11th year of the People of One Fire. In that time, we have seen a radical change in the way people receive information. The magazine industry has almost died. Printed newspapers are on life support. Ezines, such as POOF, replaced printed books as the primary means to present new knowledge. Now the media is shifting to videos, animated films of ancient towns, Youtube and three dimensional holograph images.

During the past six years, a privately owned business has generously subsidized my research as I virtually traveled along the coast lines and rivers of the Southeast. That will end in December 2017. I desperately need to find a means to keep our research self-supporting with advertising from a broader range of viewers. Creation of animated architectural history films for POOF and a People of One Fire Youtube Channel appears to be the way. To do this I will need to acquire state-of-art software and video hardware, which I can not afford with my very limited income. Several of you know personally that I live a very modest lifestyle. If you can help with this endeavor, it will be greatly appreciated.

Support Us!

Richard Thornton . . . the truth is out there somewhere!

Pin It on Pinterest